Brilliant. No more comment can be added. Below the Eurogroup statement issued after the EG finance Minister ended without agreement.
“The Eurogroup was updated on the state of play of the intensive negotiations between the institutions (the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund) and the Greek authorities on Greece’s comprehensive reform plan.
The agreement on the plan is a precondition for a successful completion of the current review of Greece’s ongoing programme and for releasing the remaining financial assistance. The agreement between Greece and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) expires on 30 June 2015.
Ministers agreed that the institutions would assess the latest proposals by the Greek authorities, which were submitted on 25 June, before the Eurogroup meeting.
The institutions informed the Eurogroup that the positions still differ on a number of issues. Ministers invited the Greek authorities to accept the proposal by the institutions.
Eurogroup President Jeroen Dijsselbloem will inform the heads of state or government on the state of play at the European Council meeting which takes place on the same day (25 June 2015).
The Eurogroup is likely to reconvene on Saturday, 27 June 2015.”
source: Consilium Europe. eu
Now is the time for Greeks to show their mettle, and reject the demands of the enemy. Another Oxi Day.
Tsipras should just walk away from this charade. They are simply not worth the effort of even trying to talk to…
politically he can;t do it. has no mandate for it
He has no mandate to sell the coutry lock stock and barrel either. Which is what the preditors demands boil down to…
Yes yes yes.Whatever we give them, they are going to ask for more. Let us regain our pride and our dignity and refuse any longer to go cap in hand to the neoliberal money men. Oxi oxi oxi!
Oh yeah, let’s post all OXI OXI OXI, all blogs in the internet big fat OXI
How can people still embrace the illusion of negotiation? This Greek government has ridiculed itself and the Greek people, is trying to keep a tiny bit of what it promised up. Just so that everyone understands: Syriza told its voters it would fly them to the moon for free and now they are blaming their failure on the rocket that was supposed to get them there. I do not understand those still supporting this government.
Understanding those who still support the Greek government is pretty simple. They have the choice between supporting a government that is at least trying to stand up for them, or submitting to a bunch of preditors whose only goal is creating an economic wasteland full of cheap, endebted labour.
Absolutely correct, eph.
Well, the support will disapear soon after the default. The inflation will move very fast, so the protests will start again. Old Greek people will get many increses in their pensions, but in fact they will get much less than they get now with all cuts. Greece will be probably isolated from the rest of Europe for another 10-20 years like during its previous default (military dictator?), so the worst will be for young generations. Good luck and please judge carefully your future…
What isolated, when?
You’ve no goat-shits idea how well the Junta worked together with CDU/CSU and Kissmyassenger.
But a 200 Euro visa-fee for Disneyland Greece would be o.k. so that the land could get rid of all these Herrentourists as this kind of tourism is terrorism.
200 Euro Visa will further isolate Greece, but ok.
Spain, Portugal, Turkey will make a great gain in tourism.
Good luck with any new Junta…
What Junta? If there would be Junta they would help some beheaders to get the “naked” off their beaches and no tourist would go their again to enjoy this cheap copy, even for the sea they have no own name and their coast they call Rivera.
Anyway it’s stupid to rely so much on tourism, come and visit some friends or sleep at the beach o.k. but as it’s now that has to change, it’s destroying the typical Greek tourism – that’s also behind the VAT-hikes, destroy it for TUI and Thomas Cook – the sea is dead, cruise ships cause cancer in the harbours, the country a concrete wasteland and most of the money is paid abroad and not in Greece, even most of the food and the drinks these big companies bring from Germoney.
You don’t understand because you decided to believe in the lies of the German Goebbles-media and therefore you’d better name yourself ProKraut
behave as an adult. that is what people like you wished to understand.
Don’t blame others for your illusions
Hey ProEurope..we here in Greece only have one thing to say to trolls like you and that is:
Α Γαμισου Μαλακα..
You call troika – the enemy :
is this just old good propaganda style – show an enemy to the people?
or divide et impera infection from higher force?
The only propaganda is made by these cold mutant-bastards to hide their crimes, the enemy is the same but this time not the “Jew” this time “the” Greeks, the “Jew” comes later again cheered by east European refugee haters.
No, it’s a statement of reality. Germany and others have effectively declared financial war on the Greek people — and seem to be actively conspiring to remove a democratically elected government.
Germany and others:))))
Germany and others pay to Greek enemy 5.000.000.000 EUR per year plus other money indirectly by cheap ECB funding.
I wish to have such enemies. GB wants to leave EU because they pay 3.000.000.000 EUR to EU budget and this is too much for such a big country, and may be enough to leave the project.
You guys are much smaller, receieve much more, and despite that call us enemies.
–
You are really blind.
you might want to come and have a look at what all this money is doing to and for the people of this country. With friends like this, who needs enemies?
You are either a moron who believes propaganda or an outright part of the propaganda. Germany is paying nothing to Greece, which is part of the problem. Germany decided to pay banks, without telling the German Volk that it intended to do so. The restructuring of debts in 2010 was done to damage Greece and protect German and French banks. This shit continues.
So, keep on whining your nonsense. It is not correct, and the priority in all of this is what happens to the debt that Germany and France imposed on the eurozone to protect their own banks. Everything else is a complex detail.
Xenos it is simply a fact that Greece receives from EU budget net about 5bln EUR per year. Check it and you will see.
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About bailout – German banks were main lender (who else should receive repayment if not lender?), but German banks made also largest depreciation during 2010 state bond hair cut.
The restructuring of debts in 2010 was done to damage Greece – what a bullshit!!! You borrowed, you wasted, you cheated and after all of this you say to those, who made cheaper funding haircut of part of your debt, and who still pay you 5bln a year – they damaged Greece. Why? Because they want you to pay loans? If you do not want to pay, do not borrow!
YOU GREEKS DAMAGED GREECE – shame on you!
“YOU GREEKS DAMAGED GREECE” LOOOOL
who borrowed?
who wasted?
who cheated?
who had unsustainable pension system?
who refused German proposals for referendum about reforms and now want to make one after deadline?
who did not even start transparent public sector accounting yet?
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YOU GREEKS DAMAGED GREECE
Marsians & Barbarians are a solution in Greece but borders are closed.
tukan: I started to lecture in economics and politics in 1990 in top Uk universities. Since then I have published around 80 books and articles, on political economy, worked as a consultant for the UN, OECD, EU and various governments. My research is cited by the IMF, World Bank, EC, OECD and others as primary source material, along with my labour market analyses.
Do you really think I give a fuck about your ignorant right wing pro-German propaganda?
Im not on tukans side in this discussion xenos, but in this last case you are clearly on the wrong side. First part of your response as you should know is simply argument from authority. Not only is it a logical fallacy, in this case it simply looks like you covering up that you didnt notice he was talking about the eu budget instead of the loans.
And that budget is, like tukan said, fact not rightwing propaganda,
after all: https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/06/24/eu-commission-stopped-funds-for-greeces-erasmus-program/
how could you stop a programm that doesnt exists.
Also for the last part if you would really not care you wouldnt answer him, instead you care enough to get really insulting.
OK, but instead of writing your CV please give me some arguments 🙂
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Is Greece large EU fund receiver or not?
Did German banks booked losses on Greek state bond haircut or not?
Did Greeks cheat on ststistics or not?
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If answers are yes, what propaganda are you speaking about?
These things have been stated very clearly by me and others in previous discussions here. If you are incapable of learning, that is not my problem.
Everything you state as factual, or pose as questions, is German propaganda. Your account of the situation is the official cover story, the narrative that Germany and the Eurogroup have created to fool people who are ignorant of economic reality. I am bored with repeatedly addressing this.
And yes, after a while, you can just accept authorities on these matters. Go and read what the Nobel Laureates in economics have to say on the situation. Not one person supports the German position; most sympathise with the Greek position, especially with the ideas of Varoufakis. The Germans have constructed a eurozone management policy that defies all economic knowledge and repeats the mistakes of history. Why? Many reasons, but self-interest, arrogance and stupidity play key roles.
Stop wasting everyone’s time with this nonsense. Read independent thinking by serious people, instead of crap in “Business Today” or “Money Insider” or “Deutschland ist Wunderbar”.
Is Greece large EU fund receiver or not?
Did German banks booked losses on Greek state bond haircut or not?
Did Greeks cheat on statistics or not?
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OK Xenos, my English is not good at all, so if you do not understand my questions, just let me know and I will try to explain.
Asking the wrong questions is as stupid as giving the wrong answers. You manage to do both: it has nothing to do with language.
Translation
1. Its all been said before, so why dont you look yourself for the arguments to defeat you? Well thats not his job in a discussion is it?
And since you keep answering it is still a discussion.
2. “EVERYTHING you state as factual is propaganda”.
Three times you were asked to talk about the budget, about sutff that really exists, Ive listed a part of that below, and KTG has articles about some of those programms, yet for your convinience you choose to ignore that and again get insulting.
3. I read Krugman sometimes, then again everything he say must be shit because after all NYT isnt trustworthy according to you.
But the main point here is that Krugman gives arguments. I dont have to trust him just because hes got a Nobelprize. Or go to Varoufakis blog, I dont always agree, but the man delivers one precise argument after another.
What do we get from you? Insults, vage or overblown statements like ” the vast majority of germans are nazis” “Germany is paying nothing to Greece…” which are OBVIOUSLY WRONG(yes germany and others pays via the budget and although I dont like the way this all went, yes a part of that bailout money directly went to government expenditure)
Im certainly not with the “the greeks have damagede greece” statement, mostly because it is imprecise and will function only to further emotialize this. But aside from that tukan is asking reasonable question that you cant or wont answer.
So please you stop wasting our time and either go back to discussing issues instead of throwing out insult and claiming you have won the debate because you have published and everyone else must be stupid, or stop lying to yourself and dont reply anymore, because you seem to think you dont care about this yet you invest alot of time in it
“About bailout – German banks were main lender (who else should receive repayment if not lender?), but German banks made also largest depreciation during 2010 state bond hair cut.”
Simply not true… the biggest losses were taken by Greek banks which were forced to buy large chunk on this “debt to be restructured”. This is the reason why at that moment relatively healthy Greek banks became insolvent after “restructure”, and they had to be recapitalized with part bailout package. So in essence from that 100B of debt to be restructured only around 20B really disappeared from Greek balance sheet (and this is again mostly small investors, and mostly internal greek ones).
“YOU GREEKS DAMAGED GREECE – shame on you!”
Sadly, but I agree on this to a large extent.
Social security funds lost 27 billion from these and job haircuts and another 27 billion Greece has to buy back from ECB, most of the latter the bloodsuckin ECB bought very cheap from hedge-funds and makes huge profit from Greece.
To call this a haircut is a joke from the same Stalinist dictionary where Merkel found the term “reform”
He isnt talking about credits, but about the EU budget.
Greece pays about 1.9bn into it and get about 6.9bn out of it. Thats things like erasmus, agricultural subsidies and infrastructure, like the renovation/extension of the athens metro.
I guess Xenos is looking in his books to see if he can find an answer to che. I’m with che and tukan.
Haven’t written any books but can see that Greece benefited from being part of EU and EZ. And wasted a lot of that borrowed money.
Greeks have damaged Greece. Isn’t Tsipras saying that about Samaras? Syriza is doing its part right now. When Greece leaves EZ, educated young people will go somewhere else in Europe and pensioners will suffer again. And it will be Tsipras fault.
Im not with you or tukan, or xenos or ephilant, im on the side of productive and rational debate 😉
Time for bed.
The army should directly destroy all the nice roads made by this “wasted” funds, so that all lazy Herrentourists in rent cars “explore” Greece without normal wandering and all the shit from Turkey and Bulgaria gets to Aegaen, Adria and north.
I don’t have to read any more books to address your points, because these things have been known for 20 years. Germany chose to arrange for Greece to join the euro (by actively colluding with the Governor of the Bank of Greece in the late 1990s) and is actually more responsible for this mess than anyone else.
The inability of Greece to absorb EU funding in the early 1980s led to systematic corruption within the Greek state in order to take the money being pressed on Greece. By 1988, Greek economists were stating that EU membership had led directly to corruption within Pasok (the ruling party). This worsened over the 1990s, the EU did nothing despite knowing it. The European Commission resigned en masse (to avoid being sacked by the Parliament) in 1999 over large-scale corruption in Brussels, much of it involving Greece. The response of Germany and France (also part of the political corruption) was to create a eurozone in defiance of expert recommendations and include weak economies like Greece in order to devalue the replacement currency for the Deutschemark.
In all of this story, we see across Europe the problem of systematic corruption, incompetence, criminal negligence, and pure greed (both personal and political). Greece is a frontline country, with high debt and weak administration, and previous corrupt governments. That is all. The real problem in this story is the entire European Union, and especially France and Germany. Nothing has changed in 20 years — only the global financial crisis of 2009.
Youre back to arguments, thank you 🙂
If you think you pay too much try birth control, 80 million hooligans always need more “space”
In the hopes that one day youll become enligthened enough to understand this:
“Generalising is the first step toward racism.”
Get your history straight this is an antifascist punk rock song from Hamburg, no idea if the band has a national identity except from being Cheersburgers.
Claiming to be an antifascist/antiracists doesnt make you one. I got no problems with a song text, like always it depends on the context.
But taken together with your other statements i read during the last few weeks, you show clear tendencies towards latent raciscm, at the very least you are guilty of gross oversimplification.
Want me to show you via a compilation of your statements?
German thought police, not able to read but to judge – in Greece Nazis get shot not blockaded
No in greece the racists get elected to parliament, whereas afd(which isnt nearly as far righ as goldendawn) thankfully fell short.
Also lets see if i read those right.
“all lazy Herrentourists in rent cars “explore” Greece without normal wandering and all the shit from Turkey and Bulgaria gets to Aegaen, Adria and north.”
Then again its obvious turkey and bulgaria are full of shit, because they and quite a few other “East-“Europeans” ” apperantly arent europeans at all.
Also they “As “the other countries” didn’t had no balls for revolution they didn’t join EU in 1981 ”
“Kraut-friendly Polish too, but in East-Germany only landlords love Polish people because they work so cheap.”
And one of my personal favourites:
Most East Europeans all have a welfare-system and cheap rent and food but they are suffering because they can’t afford a new German car every 2 years or what,..!
So the poor in greece are starving yet the poor in other countries are greedy basterds.
Finally we have this gem:
“Böäärlin(*) to proof the cuts”
Greece needs the army to get the German reparations out of Kaltland and finish the Morgenthau-Plan”
I wont take this too serious, but yeah, reverse greecen and ger in that statement and then you get pretty much a truly nazi statement.
I wont claim that this is full blown raciscm, but the tendencies
towards latent racicsm are apparent.
Maybe you should learn better where the money comes from…
http://www.bloombergbriefs.com/content/uploads/sites/2/2015/01/MS_Greece_WhoHurts.pdf
Germany will not hurt the most…
Greeks are humiliated? Try to explain that to Slovenia where each Slovenian has 600€ lent to Greece.
What’s this nonsense? How much Greece paid because they were too stupid to kill Tito and join the EU as early as Greece? If all these East-“Europeans” got a problem with EU and help refugees just go back to Russia and Yugoslavia, nationalist idiots.
Thank you for the rant!
Always a pleasure talking to you.
Exactly! It makes no sense prolonging this farce. Tsipras should go back to Greece and take the measures that Greece needs to overcome this crisis. Default, Nationalize banks, take control of central bank, expropriate oligarchs, prepare exit from the euro, make deals with partners that are not interested in overthrowing its government.
Tsipras does not have a mandate to push more austerity and for total surrender to the “institutions”. If he thinks he has no mandate to do what it takes, than call new elections or a referendum.