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Did Germany offer Greece a trade “Bailout program review for Migration Control”?

Did they? Will they? Is there a trade between “Greece’s Adjustment program  progress review” and “keeping migrants and refugees out of Europe?”. I f I am not wrong – and I am not! – we had this issue some months ago. As usual, I ‘m just too lazy – ‘busy’ that is – to search for the relevant links for older posts by KTG.  If I am not wrong – and I’m not! – the original idea had come by some archc-nservative of the German CDU  – or was it CSU? Nevertheless, there are some indications that Germany allegedly promised Greece that “more efficient management of the refugee crisis could help along creditors’ review of the country’s third bailout.” And apparently, this was the nonplus ultra Emergency Button that forced Athens to push for the establishment of 5 hot spots – ie. migrants & refugees registration centers – on the islands of the Eastern Aegean Sea and 2 relocation camps in the mainland.

“According to sources, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has indicated to Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras that success in tackling the migration crisis could boost the country’s prospects for progress with the review, which Athens hopes could ease the way for debt talks. Combined with a burgeoning debate about Greece’s future in the passport-free Schengen area, the message from Berlin is said to have encouraged action by Greek officials.

A source close to Tsipras who participated in a meeting of government officials on the refugee crisis over the weekend told Kathimerini that the prospect of a “European solution” to the migration crisis and Schengen issue was “becoming increasingly remote” as EU governments face a backlash from their own people about rising migrant arrivals.

Tsipras is expected to meet Merkel on the sidelines of a Syria donors’ conference in London on Thursday where Greece’s response to the refugee crisis is likely to be the key topic of conversation. A broader meeting including Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu and key officials from other European countries, among them Austria and the Netherlands, is also probable, sources indicated. (full article ekathimerini)

End of January the Financial Times claimed that Germany would agree to a massive writedown of Greek debt should Athens manage to take migration under control.

PS when blackmail doesn’t work, then glass pearls would do the job – probably.

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  1. So Greece can control the migrants, but does not want to? Same about the farmers blocking the land border crossings?

    • No, Greece cannot. The only thing Greece can do is process the migrants more rapidly with the stupid Eurodac machines (which is what the European Commission is complaining about). Of course, other EU countries don’t care about the fingerprinting that much: they want Greece to do the impossible and keep genuine refugees out of Europe.

      • Since this is the lynchpin of the whole problem and its whats hotly discussed right now here in ger, what makes for you a genuine refugee?
        Or in other words what criteria would you propose for granting/denying asylum or refugee status?

        • Giaourti Giaourtaki

          You can travel to Napalm or anywhere else you want, you can also migrate to America, New Zealand, Australia or any other occupied country that exists only because racist migrants took up weapons, you are as illegal as these occupations and now your greed asks for criteria? What gives you the right to buy a car, a smart-phone and take taxes from your weapons-industry instead of destroying it all? Better man!

          • Typical, its all the same, there is no nuance, gigi sauce.
            To travel and visit is not to migrate.
            You love to ignore reality. I say I want criteria by which too choose who we can grant asylum to and you tell this would be inhumane/greedy/against the law. But your alternative of greeting everyone with open arms and telling everyone not satisfied with his or her economic conditions: ” of course you can come” ends in riots and even more sure in starved and frozen people on the streets.
            Guess Ill send you pictures of the victims next year and then tell how your greed/ racists /nazi attitudes are responsible for all this(makes still more sense to you trying to tie me to car or weapons industry)

          • Giaourti Giaourtaki

            Wow, genius: Just call your 700.000 refugees tourists and stop hysteria. Typical German inch pinching with having rights to travel by (capitalistic) birth and seeing it more worth than the right to migrate; as for political asylum you can look into a dictionary, there was also a band named this way, just read into their lyrics.
            So instead of closing your weapons and car factories you don’t use their taxes to corrupt proletarians that don’t fit in your exploitation scheme with fat welfare to keep them quiet?
            There is a much more just solution, population exchange, just move the whole First World Nations into the bad south, they were living just for too long in luxury, now it’s time for the poor to party or just grow their own food.
            Your pogroms have nothing to do with refugees, it’s a long lasting Neo-Nazi-movement, ignored and supported by the state with faked numbers of murder by Nazi and the German more than 6 years of systematic anti-Greek hunt that was provoking it, not seeing that the organized German Neo-Nazis have their buddies in Greece and didn’t act like planned, instead of Greeks they take the refugees to be the new jews.
            But we all know what will happen, after kicking out all refugees will come the Turks, the Greeks and the Italians.

          • Wow, you win.
            This is a level of absurdity I cant deal with.
            Maybe try to emulate???
            Since I own the german weapons and car industry I guess that makes you a golden dawn supporter.
            Dont talk to me so olong as your freaking nazi pals sit in our shared parliament. Ans since your oligarchs dont pay enough taxes youre a fraud and exploiter of lives too.
            But its ok because I know next time you have a heart attack youll refuse the ambulance and instead go by bike or horse carriage in order to be good to the envirnment.

          • Giaourti Giaourtaki

            It’s you who supports this right wingers government bullshit of migrants selection and blaming it all on Greece and as you want concentration camps you have to build them yourself in German but not in Greek islands, esp as all of the more than a thousand refugees drowned the last 6 months in the Aegean were from Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and Eritrea, most were Arabs but not anybody was “North-African”.
            So your new scapegoat does not come via Greece, may be it comes from French or Belgian suburbs or it was the promised new-years IS-attack. You need to get expelled from Schengen, you are even to lame to control your border against criminals from France and let through in Greece registered persons that later materialize as terrorists against you soccer fans and a few weeks later when you think the people don’t remember it you start also to blame this on Greece instead to thank her for the indentification.
            I just can’t wait to read the next Pulitzer with “Kammenos was threating with refugee-floods and terrorists and Greece change her laws therefore”

          • Im not blaming anything on “greece”, in fact i have praised its citizens multiple times, if anything im blaming the government(s).
            As for the rest I wonder do you talk like this in rl?
            Its like im saying i prefer pasta to rice and the next thing that comes from you is a 30 minute lecture on how I hate asians and worship mussolini.
            As for nationalities. First of all the numbers coming from magreb states has more then tripled since 6 month ago(even though its winter)
            and more importantly 2/3 of the guys in cologne that could be identified came from those countries. I dont want to go by nationality even though thats what most countries do nowadays.
            I want to go by need( war before poverty, children women and famlies before single men…) and gladly by factors like potential to build a life, willingness to learn language and adhere to customs as well as criminal records(actual crime=immediate expulsion).

            Once again, your mantra of non selection sounds nice in theory, but in reality it means hiring an additional policeman to cope with the crimes of some instead of hiring an additional teacher to teach those kids. If this makes me a nazi you havent listened to history class.

          • Giaourti Giaourtaki

            You still don’t get it. Over a thousand people died in the Aegean and you talk of your police statistics of petty criminals in Germany. Who is it who always wanted to be like Amerika, this sounds like Berlin wants to be like NYC but please without potholes!
            Why should Greece decide on granting Asylum in Germoney or not? This is just an illegal trick to keep them away from your borders and you hope they’ll all strand in Greece but you forget that then the ferries will go to Italy and Italy will be Christian enough to let them go to where they want.
            If they want to learn a language why not Greek, Europe needs a language anyway and as all languages stole 2/3 from Greek it’s the easiest way that all learn Greek but German? For the capitalists!
            Screaming that “Greece is not having proper border-controls” while ignoring that 100.000 people got rescued out of the water by border controls, another minimum of 10.000 taken out of the waters by NGOs and 50.000 by Turkey is exactly your government propaganda and Merkel for peace-prize nonsense and Out-of-Schengen-threat and austerity blackmail, also the migrates-or-refugees discussion is always forced by extreme rightwing.
            You own the right to travel but others are not allowed to migrate, but migration is more important than luxury, you’re even so weird that you take an answer of mine to Xenos as if meant to be for you.

          • This is garbage. Hardly any North Africans have arrived in Greece: they go to Italy. The nationalities arriving in Greece for the last year have been 92% from refugee-producing countries — mainly Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq.
            As for “crimes”, I have no idea what you are talking about. There jhave been some incidents, which hte right wing press has made a big uss over. The reality is that in Germany, the majority of all crimes are committed by Germans. The same in all countries, and especially with non-property crimes like murder and rape. Europe’s problems are of its own making and with its own citizens: stop trying to claim that others are responsible.

          • “lk of your police statistics of petty criminals”
            “As for “crimes”, I have no idea what you are talking about.”
            It seems to me you two have not been following the news then.
            Just google about cologne(and elsewhere too) at new years eve.
            HUNDREDS of sexual harassments up to forcing their fingers into body openings and a few all out rapes. The fact that some of the perpetrators also used this opportunity to steal certainly doesnt makes it better either.
            This is not petty criminals or just “crimes”.
            I also already told you that yesterday isis member preparing attacks were arrested.
            The isis guys as well as the majority of suspects on the new years eve incident are from the three states mentioned.

            “this is just an illegal trick to keep them away from your borders and you hope they’ll all strand in Greece”

            It is you who doesnt understand. First up noone is talking about letting the people stay in greece permanently if only for the fact that noone would want to shatter your view on angel greece(asylum acceptance rate 2014 about 15 %, only beaten by hungary) and devil germany(about 40% with about 3 times the applications per citizen).
            Its about getting information about who is coming so we can take care of the ones who will stay and quickly send those back to their countries who will not be allowed to stay. As for the result, what you describe, the backflow to greece, is what WILL happen even without german involvement if the greek government is unwilling or uncapabale of doing more. Austria and some balkans are already in negotiation about this.

            Finally “You own the right to travel but others are not allowed to migrate”
            I want the right for everyonee to go everywhere on this planet immediatly, and ive told you so multiple times. But I also know that this isnt feasible right away. You just look at what you want, at what ideals you think are just and ignore reality.
            “There is a much more just solution, population exchange”
            How about we ask xenos, who after all is the economist here, how well thatll turn out. Putting aside the fact that youre almost eager to get people who were unfortunate to have been born in the industrialised world(nice criterium, once again shows YOUR raciscm) into poverty. Im perfectly sure that if we were to swap the whole population all that would happens is starvation, war and poverty EVERYWHERE. Or do you believe an african farmer could instantly take the job of an engineer or doctor or teacher?
            Similarily you say you want open borders for everyone, yet the positions you hold will lead to more borders.
            Its not so much your ideals I have a problem with, it is that your suggestions on how to get there are completly divorced from reality.

          • Giaourti Giaourtaki

            “Anti-rich racism” is very cool I guess this comes from the same German brains that fixed the definition that anti-Capitalism is anti-Semitism and if you wanna select and concentrate people on islands buy yourself one and build your own concentration camp on it but not in Greece as there is history with concentration camps. It’s really nice to read all these German “WE”, “WE”, “WE” and “let us” regarding islands you have never been.
            Oh, and please start to learn 28 languages and constitutions to make no mistakes with the asylum and before you get the great idea of an European Asylum start first with Hartz4 for every European.

          • “Why should Greece decide on granting Asylum in Germoney or not? ”
            Because then those people can be given travel papers and they can go safely by train or ship, bus or plane instead of being blocked at every border and having to rely on human trafficking smugglers.

            ““Anti-rich racism” is very cool I guess this comes from the same German brains”

            Obviously raciscm from white people against especially black and jews but also other groups has done the most damage by far historically.
            but that doesnt mean its the only kind of raciscm there is. Go to Korea, China and Japan and ask a hundred people what they think of those other nationalities. Ask a hundred South africans what they think about the immigrants from their neighboring countries, or arabs what they think about blacks and so on. Sadly raciscm and other kinds of discrimination are spread far and wide in this world.

            “There is a much more just solution, population exchange, just move the whole First World Nations into the bad south, they were living just for too long in luxury, now it’s time for the poor to party or just grow their own food.”

            You show hatred toward people simply because of how and where they were born, thats raciscm/unwarranted discrimination, no matter to whom your hatred directed.
            You want to swap populations and think it to be just for “the rich”, which in this context means the whole population, too go into poverty and death.
            I want to help the people in need just like you do, but why would you want others to suffer?
            And this doesnt make me right wing or pro capitalist or anything. Its just nuance that is needed.
            The 62 richest people right now own about as much property as the lower half of the world population. Thats a catastrophic imbalance in our economic system and a prime reason for that is greed and political influence of the upper class in this world.
            So far so good, but now you still need to look at those 62 people, and then you find such despicable creatures like the Kochs(those we can punish) alongside bill gates and warren buffet. Those 2 didnt inherit their money, theyre not wasting it on absurd luxuries, they are not activly seeking political influence and when they have it through interview or such, they use it for rather sensible issues that will help others(gates foundation/ buffet rule). So why would you wish them harm?

            To judge someone, on race or sex, wealth(be it high or ,of course more common, low) religion, sexual orientation, the language they speak … , instead of their personal actions and the positions they advocate, is bad. And you do, at least in some of your posts here.

        • The criteria are set out in law, which is supposed to be standard across the entire EU. The definitions are laid down in the jurisprudence of EU countries since 1951 — the UN Convention. They are supplemented by the European Convention on Human Right and the case law of the European Court of Human Rights.
          Given 60 years of court rulings across the European continent, my personal opinion on what constitutes a strong claim for international protection is of no consequence. This is what people like you seem not to understand: the politicians are not entitled to change the law, without breaking all the laws that they are required to obey. Hungary has chosen to do so: let’s see what its punishment will be. I hope it will be very harsh — to teach xenophobes, racists, Nazis and law-haters a nasty lesson.

          • Those laws are fine in theory, but please tell me how many countries in the world abide actually by this convention.
            The vast majority of refugees now is settled in swe ger and aus. If they cannot (no do not want to, cannot) take in more people it is ridculous to blame them as lawbreakers, while the rest of the world does nothing.
            Laws can be changed, countries can choose to implement or not to implement them, so its not like opinions dont matter because its all set in stone.
            Btw. the definition of refugee in the 1951 un paper is:
            “A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion,”
            Whereas the grundgesetz simply states politically persectuted people receive asylum.
            Neither of those 2 include econmic migrant, arguably not even all refugees from war zones are included.
            Ill add that 75% of all asylum seeker in greece pre crisis got turned down. So why is it racicst/stupid/unfeasable/unhuman, to try to get some order into this process.
            Just today Isis member werde arrested in berlin, 2 of them entered with fake syrian passports(theyre algerians) and while they might have gotten through 2 years ago the way it is right now makes it all the more easy for them.
            ANother interesting number. About 0.5% of all syrian refugees commit some kind of crime within their first year. For moroccan/algerian/tunesian people its 40%(mostly pickpocketing and or burglaries or sexual harassment up to rape).
            Now I would still like an assesment on an individual basis but this is not possible with the current influx of people. So in the end its not relevant wha tthe un charta says, but whether or not the government classifies those countries as “safe”.
            Do I like this process? No!
            But it is still then better then what gigi wants, no selection at all. Not selecting means neglecting children fleeing the war in exchange for taking care of thieves who fled poverty(aka. not refugees under the definitons lsited above)
            The irony in this is that russia, isis and rightwingers all around the globe think we are crazy guilt ridden leftists, yet here Im still the nazi(because I care more about what actually happens then lofty principles).

          • Try reading what I wrote. I told you that there is 60 years of legal rulings in most EU countries, and in the European court. These are not theoretical ideas: these are law in practice, about persons in need of international protection.
            You follow the right wing press and political propaganda which is pretending that we do not have functioning law and precise definitions. This is what the extreme right wants you to think, and like a fool you accept it.
            Go and read some undergraduate law articles on the law of asylum. There used to be one online, written by Goodwin-Gill, on a UNHCR site. Anyone who thinks that this is a new problem is off his head: the only new thing is that we now have millions of people arriving from Syria — which is a war zone.

          • “You follow the right wing press and political propaganda”
            Just so we can get this out of the way once and for all, I read/watch nytimes, die zeit, spiegel onl. tagesschau and last week tonight on a regular basis, occasionally the taz(leftist daily), the guardian, bbc, al jazeera and both american and german daily show.
            I have voted in my life on seperate occasions for the greens the spd and the linke plus im proud to have given my vote to help elect julia reda, the one pirate in the ep.

            “Try reading what I wrote. I told you that there is 60 years of legal rulings in most EU countries, and in the European court….”

            So then explain to me(seriously not rhetorically) why swe/ger/aus must obey this and take in millions? Yet eastern europe wont take any, france britain spain and the us will a couple of ten thousand(maybe), the arabs nations aside from lebanon or russia whos now also bombing arent taking in refugees either.
            Im certainly no lawyer(might follow your reading suggestion, but not tonight 🙂 but I once had a rather high appreciation for the concept of law.
            There is two things that eroded this. First is that since the time I follow the news I constantly see those laws that are supposed to be the high standards of our ethics are being broken by governments on a near day basis not just in warlike situations, government surveilance by the us and others is a catastrophe and last year the highest lawyer of my government wanted to prosecute journalists who covered the snowden leaks for treason, all the while he was doing NOTHING to move against nsa on german soil(which if you read the definiton on it makes HIM the traitor), sometimes I wonder how long till someone claims gg article 20.4.(right to resistance) So if most states ignore law at some times why wouldnt they now? (slipperly slope i realize)

            The second part is that i studied physics and math. As a result my ethics are strictly consequentialist/utilitarian. Integral from 0 to the sum of all conscious beings over their happines = max 😉
            Im not happy but I can live with breaking the law or even the unfairness of saying yes to some and no to others, if this means the overall best results.
            Im very much not okay with indiscrimnatly letting everyone come here, just because its “the right thing to do in principle” or the law, if that means massivly overflowing refugee shelters with no chance to properly take care of them.
            One last thought on this.
            My friend Susanne is a teacher at middle/highschool. They took in 15 refugee girls 11-16 years old this summer. All but one had been sexually harassed or raped either in their country of origin or(mostly) on the voyage here, in one case by policemen the others were abused by other refugees who are now here as well.
            One consequence of taking everyone in is that those girls would potentially have to live for months in a big hall right next to the perpetrators, because we cant provide proper housing or even seperate bathrooms for both sexes.
            Now the law comes in. Suppose it would happen what almost never happens in these cases and the perpetrator get caught and convicted. If hes from syria or afghanistan or some other war region or has a reasonable fear of being persecuted in his country of origin, by law we cant send him back, ever, even after serving a sentence hed just go back to some refugee housing.
            Im all for the principals behind the unhcr or gg art. 1 or similar such laws. But if what we have now as a legal framework doesnt function/produce the results we aspire to, well unlike in physics human laws can be changed(or ignored).

          • Well, too much for me to respond to, there. First thing is that politicians across the EU have decided that they don’t want the rule of law. Nobody seems to have picked up on this, but it is a major change in our societies and will have massive (and terrible) ramifications. the clearest effect is already visible in the UK: ordinary citizens without substantial financial assets to pay very high legal fees are no longer able to defend themselves in court. As for refugees and asylum-seekers (let alone irregular immigrants)– forget it: they have no legal rights. Only the rich can expect the protection of the law.
            As usual, the UK leads Europe in developing new ideas (often terrible ones), so one can reasonable state that this is the future of all Europe. As for the east European states: yes, they can recall the despotic days when the governments could do as they liked (with the approval of the USSR) — and as they are fascist in inclination, yearn for that power. They want to destroy European law, except in the cases where they benefit from it (such as the right of their citizens to migrate and work in the UK).
            Germany was the one country in the EU that might have been ecxpected to uphold the rule of law. If it is not, then Europe is doomed. It’s that simple. Today, I have read that the Interior Ministers of germany, France and Greece decided in Athens yesterday that “Turkey is a safe country of Asylum” and all refugees can be returned there. This is preposterous, illegal and will not be upheld by any courts unless the judges are threatened and forced to reach the “correct conclusions”. [Don’t think that they won’t try this on: it has been done with me and a major EU research project, with Sarkozy trying to determine the outcome. I refused to comply, and have never received another project since, as a punishment. The Greek political parties of Pasok and ND have also done the same — handing out research only to compliant lapdogs. Howveer, most judges have the same mindset as me, and will not take instructions from dirty politicians.]
            So, Europe is set for major legal fights and political mayhem — instead of doing the right thing and accepting genuine refugees into our continent. They will never be able to change the EU laws that are predicated on European case law and international law. It’s a form of political suicide — just like the eurozone. That’s what happens when you put third rate people into key positions of power: they fuck up the world.

          • Most of this I agree with, some thoughts:
            “…Nobody seems to have picked up on this, but it is a major change in our societies…”
            Well I have, like i said the whole spying on everyone and everything without supervision drives me crazy. A few hundred km south of me right in the rhine-main area, aka the biggest banking and the biggests datatrafficing point in mainland europe the freaking nsa has multiple data centers. When the whole snowden thing broke and the politicians caved I said lets wait a few years the verfassungsgericht or some other judge wont care about us relations and give them fire. To this day nothing!
            What I dont know about is the getting worse/major change part. Ive only actively followed poltics for about 15 years(and thats different then reading about history) so I cant really compare one on one, but I cant say that kohl wouldve been more sympatic then my current government. In fact if I think back over the last 200 years the only chancellor I would rate better(=even less bad) is brandt.

            “…If it is not, then Europe is doomed.”
            On that part I can tell you that cologne was a game changer, not so much because it makes the right wing feel like they won the argument, though this bad enough because next month there will be some city and state election and afd might get third with 10+x%(wont matter much because noone will form a coalition with them). It is the broad middle of citizens who were helping themselves or at least didnt mind others helping and the state paying, many of those people now worry that this huge influx of people foreign to our culture in such a short time is more then society can succesfully absorb.
            Right now merkel(and most of the spd) is still holding against seehofers csu and quite a few in her own party(while wolfie is calmly staying out of this and laying in wait), but if this gets bungled further and further on all fronts public support will erode even more and then she will have to cave in.

          • Giaourti Giaourtaki

            It’s so funny that the German police-minister pushes Greece to criminalize refugee-supporters as traffickers and the Greek police arrests them on Lesbos and storms their house in Idomeni but much more funny is that only British papers report about it.
            But it’s what I’ve said before regarding your petty criminals you’re so self-centred that you just presuppose that the whole world knows about your German interns but for the 1000 drowned or Greece you don’t care.
            btw, it was Kohl’s war-reparations fraud calling “reunification” “joining”, just to get away with not paying obligation from 1947 and 1953 treaties and for closing his eyes about this big Kohl-crime Mitterand gots his beloved Euro.

          • Giaourti Giaourtaki

            If the refugees want to be distributed all over Europe your Merkel must force Europe to take them or throw these xenophobe satellites out – it must be a bad joke that the CSSR who wanted only “Christians” can’t find any – but instead Germany bows to them and puts it all on Greece and Italy again.
            This is totally stupid as the southern Europeans have much more of the European values in common than the satellites who hope that the Southern states will fail, leave the Euro and provide cheap holidays.

      • If Greece truly cannot stop the refugee/migrant flow to Europe, it does not really matter what bargain Germany offers. The result will be the same.

        • keeptalkinggreece

          it’s “Lippenbekennentniss” (sorry, German) from all sides

        • No offer is being made, and none of the politicians has the slightest idea how to stop flows of legitimate refugees — without breaking EU law and defying the UN 1951 Convention, and possibly also committing crimes against humanity.
          That is why they would like Turkey to break all these laws, having encountered a stubborn Mouzalas (who actually knows the law, and for some strange reason doesn’t want to end up in The Hague). Of course, Turkey is in a better position than Greece to stop refugee flows, as it maintains the original geographical limitation on refugee origin (Europe) and has land borders to control, which are much easier. Still, the EU is asking Turkey (indirectly) to deny human rights to those seeking international protection: it is potentially judiciable in European courts, to challenge the behaviour of the Commission.