In a strong symbolic message to EU’s member countries, Pope Francis will leave the island of Lesvos with 10 refugees from the so-called vulnerable groups: sing-parent families, mothers with children, people with disabilities or health problems. the refugees have arrived in Greece before March 20th, when the EU Turkey Deal went into effect and are now “trapped” in Greece after the borders closure.
According to state ERT TV, the refugees are 8 Syrians and 2 Afghans, with the latter to have been excluded from the EU relocation scheme.
The refugees were chosen yesterday Friday per draw among those in Kara Tepe hot spot. A delegation from Vatican had arrived earlier to make the arrangements.
It is not clear whether the 10 refugees will stay in Vatican City.
via @Cindy_Wooden 2 minutes ago
This move by Pope Francis is considered as an expression of his discontent about the policy and practice of relocation scheme as well as a strong message to EU leaders who refuse to comply with the decisions they agreed upon.
Pope Francis meets detained minors at Moria detention center. They arrived on Lesvos after March 20th, they most likely be sent back to Turkey, if they cannot claim asylum.
Pope Francis arrived at 10:20 a.m. on the island of Lesvos that “carries the burden of the Refugee crisis” as Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras told him, when he welcomed the Pontifex at the local airport.
Pope Francis told Greek PM that he ‘feels proud’ for Greek people’s stance and solidarity towards the refugees.
via @BrunoTersago
Yazidi Kurds waiting for the arrival of Pope Francis in Moria detention center.
More than 3,000 people are in Moria detention center as they arrived after March 20th.
A total of 417 people who have arrived before March 20 are in open accommodation centers (hot spots) like Kara Tepe, they are trapped on Lesvos.
Pope Francis message on Twitter
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Refugees are not numbers, they are people who have faces, names, stories, and need to be treated as such.
Pope Francis Together with the Greek Orthodox Church leadership, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I and the Archbishop of Athens and all Greece Ieronymos, the head of the Catholic Church Pope Francis are sending a strong message to European Union and give hope to the thousands of refugees and migrants who are Muslims in their majority.
In Moria detention center, a refugee man breaks down in tears and tells Pope Francis “Father, Bless me!”
embedded by Embedded Video
YouTube Direkt
The visit is historic and off strict protocol – the heads of the Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches churches visit the refugees camps in the same vehicle, when normally Pope Francis uses a car of his own.
Pope Francis, PM Tsipras, Archbishop Ieronynous at the airport.
The visit is on Live broadcast via ERT, while it is the Vatican that provides live footage to media.
Highlights 2 hours – Footage via Radio Vatican
Live stream right now – Pray for refugees & migrants drowned trying to reach Europe
via @Cindy_Wooden 52 seconds ago
Woman, kneeling & sobbing, tells #PopeFrancis and @EcuPatriarch in English of her flight: “I go and I go and I go.”
embedded by Embedded Video
YouTube Direkt
#Refugee child weeping uncontrollably, kissing #PopeFrancis‘ feet
Among others, they sharply proclaim: “We appeal to all followers of Christ to be mindful of the Lord’s words, on which we will one day be judged.”Quoting Jesus’ words in Matthew’s Gospel, they state: “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”
“The tragedy of forced migration and displacement affects millions, and is fundamentally a crisis of humanity, calling for a response of solidarity, compassion, generosity and an immediate practical commitment of resources,” they state.
“From Lesbos, we appeal to the international community to respond with courage,” they continue. “We call upon all political leaders to employ every means to ensure that individuals and communities … enjoy the fundamental right to live in peace and security.”
#PopeFrancis expresses admiration for Greeks who kept their hearts and doors wide open despite difficulties, praises the generosity of NGOs and the volunteers’ work.
“The Pope has desired to make a gesture of welcome regarding refugees, accompanying on his plane to Rome three families of refugees from Syria, 12 people in all, including six children. These are all people who were already in camps in Lesbos before the agreement between the European Union and Turkey.The Pope’s initiative was brought to fruition through negotiations carried out by the Secretariat of State with the competent Greek and Italian authorities.
All the members of the three families are Muslims. Two families come from Damascus, and one from Deir Azzor (in the area occupied by Daesh). Their homes had been bombed.
The Vatican will take responsibility for bringing in and maintaining the three families. The initial hospitality will be taken care of by the Community of Sant’Egidio.”
Antonio Spadaro SJ @antoniospadaro 57 minutes ago
What happened to the 2 Afghan refugees and the ‘social criteria’ state ERT TV had reported this morning? No idea…
This shows how depraved and corrupted European politics have become — when we actually rely on churches and charities for humanitarian actions. Goverments have failed the people — with the implication that religion may return as a source of hope. I say this as a practising atheist.
People have always relied on churches and charities for humanitarian acts (see the history of many convents and monasteries). Governments (political leaders)throughout the history have minded mainly their political interests, inciting wars and spreading distruction and misery. And religion has always been, and as far as human kind is concerned, will continue to be the only source of hope, with God the only constant element in the transitory world.
It’s good to read on the activities of some religious orders (e.g. the Brothers Hospitallers of Saint John of God, or Daughters of Charity of Saint Vincent de Paul, and many others) to open our hearts to more knowledge, to understand better the world of today.
How will they now lie away the fact that in the Aegean already more than a thousand were murdered by all these embassies of human rights countries that force people into the sea with their illegally closed doors?
Surely no-one FORCED them into the sea. They were already in a safe country and could have applied for asylum if they were endangered in their own country. They chose to gamble their lives by paying smugglers to get them into Europe.
What garbage is this? Turkey does not recognise refugees under the UN convention, is not a safe country by any criteria, and they were not able to apply for asylum anywhere before Greece.
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Why do people persist in posting lies and propaganda against genuine refugees, across the internet? Is it in the hope that enough people will be fooled, or is it that they genuinely are stupid enough to post this rubbish?
As with all pre-planned crimes, they will deny that (a) any crime was committed; and (b) if such is proven, will then deny that they had any connection with the crime. It is but additional proof that contemporary European politicians are actually nothing other than experienced criminals.
But it’s crazy that all European press lie about it – even the leftist must be racist – they all stopped their body count on 31st of December to start again on 1st of January.
Thee are not people they are labeled as ..
REFUGEES & therefore deserving of being treated as human beings.
NOT REFUGEES & therefore deserving of all manner of inhumanity & including death – BECAUSE THE ARE NOT HUMAN BEINGS
Q:
But who gets to toss the coin & make the call ?
Who can look at 2 men standing side by side & decide that one is human & therefore deserving & the other is not human & therefore not deserving.
Ti shata imuste –
Therefore we enjoy the Human Rights Movement forcing Australia to close all embassies in Europe for being racist anti-Refugee
That is a clear message to the EU: The pope takes the most vulnerable in. The EU mostly allowed young single men in.
Bullshit-Nazi-propaganda founded on “statistics” that counts in all male, even under-age
All you can come up with responding to people is “Nazi this, Nazi that”. The situation in Idioma might be different but the people that came into the EU last year for 70-75% where single young males. Now, every other newspaper shows a mother with children because you know….that sells good. But the overwhelming majority were young males. I drove through FYROM last year back and forth twice and I can tell you that is in line with what I saw.
Sure, let’s allow the families in. Young males that will upset the age distribution and composition of the sexes in the population(in Sweden it is now already 1.25 men vs 1 woman) not. They should and build up their countries. In a country like the Netherlands where during the 90s many asylum seekers came in still 60% is without a job and lives on welfare. Of course, the Dutch are Nazis, all of them. The fact is that this is going to blow up the system of social services and people will be forced to pay more taxes. Add to this social tensions and then you really have a recipe for disaster where you have strings of far right parties coming into power everywhere.
Idioma? This is supposed to be a place?
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And your claim that it was mostly single young men who came in is a blatant lie: the vast majority of the more than one million who came in as asylum-seekers (and were not actually “allowed in” as you stupidly put it) were families with young children and babies.
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Try getting your facts right, before you post garbage here. And your opinions about refugees staying in their country of war and basically dying is your own nasty little opinion: the world has accepted the concept of asylum for millennia, and in law since 1951. We are not going to allow neoliberals and other right wing scum to remove the few things that the world has got right.
Here are the statistics from UNHCR of the inflow of people since Jan 2016: http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php
As you can see the majority is male, 45%. Only 20% women. But we were talking about 2015. According to the UNHCR back in November males accounted for 75%. Remember, these are figures of the UNHCR. They know. So you get your own facts straight.
I am not saying that some of these people are legitimate refugees but if they were why then not be happy to settle in Turkey, Greece, FYROM, Serbia, Croatia? Because they were told they would get a house and 2000 Euro per month in Germany and Austria. Do you think that these societies can handle up to a million people per year? It is estimated that it will cost Germany 50 billion Euro per year to accommodate the people that arrived last year and integrate them into society (like that really worked well with previous migrants…). It is a ticking time bomb regarding demographics and social tensions, not to mention security.
This misery is the result of the failed so called Arab Spring and the failed US foreign policy regarding the ME. Obama said in 2009 in Cairo that he wanted to reset relations with the Islamic world. I guess the people over there did not have this terrible situation in mind when they jubilated over his speech.
So what is the solution to this misery caused by the US and supported by the EU? Peace in Syria and rebuild the country. It will cost 200 billion dollar to do that but that is cheaper in the long run.
Name calling is very typical of communist scum like yourself (hey, I am calling names now but you started it). Nothing more fascist nowadays then the “new progressives”, willing to spend other people’s money for their own feel-good Gutmensch objectives. How many refugees have you taken into your home then?
Hopefully not too long: Why should Greece be interested in your German problems with that “million”? And why do have to destroy Greeks hope to find a job as a German teacher in Germoney? No children came, no teachers needed, oh shit!
“Gutmensch” is like the rest exactly this Nazi-lingo one can find in any German “forum”, it’s funny that it’s now “possessed” by extreme right-wing as it was originally a radical-leftist term invented by anarchist comedian Mr. Wiglaf Droste but you know how stupid Nazis are, the only creative thing they do is steal, just like they steal Afro-American music to gutter it with ugly Barbarian “language” (also 2/3 all stolen), even their NSU-terrorists need German subtitles on TV as they grumble more Czech than German.
It’s also all this other troll-factory shit like asking homeless like us to take refugees in their houses, also it’s a lie that one million reached Germoney, if one counts in all who will get deported it will end up good under half a million.
Fascism is an ideology and not a method like German Nazis try to make people believe, it’s a PR-washing campaign, it also opens up possibilities to sue others.
The statistics of the UNHCR don’t lie. People claim that my statistics are nazi-statistics but they come from the UNHCR. Nazis too?
As usual you babble incoherently and irrationally but I will bite. So Germans now also steal Afro-American music? Like in the “dreadlock hair case” in the US whites are now also appropriating African culture?
Really? If that is such a problem then people who have something against whites “appropriating” African culture should stop using computers, phones, planes, cars, TV, radio, medications, etc. and even should stop claiming humans rights and democracy. Clearly all inventions of those evil white people and using them would be ‘appropriation of white culture’. Very hypocritical. Just like these people trashing capitalism on internet and facebook not realizing that without capitalism -and there is a lot wrong with that but it still beats communism- there wouldn’t be these things. But hey, people like using these things cause they makes their lives longer, happier and more convenient and fun. Without them life would be quite the opposite.
You are citing the inflows through Italy. Greece is not in Italy, in case you don’t know. Try looking at the UNHCR data for Greece, for all 2015 and also 2016. You might learn something, instead of posting rubbish here. My facts are completely correct: I also have more detailed data than UNHCR publishes, since they use only Greek police data. Clearly, you do not understand the data: I compile data and advise governments and the UN on such matters. Kindly do not try to patronise me.
And I have explained unpteen times here that Syrian, Iraqi and Afghan refugees are not recognised in ANY country prior to Greece, and even Greece is dubious according to the CJEU and ECHR. Try getting your legal facts straight, because they are as fucked up as your statistical garbage. The refugees come to the EU because the EU is supposed to respect human rights — although with the scum populating much of it, that is about to end.
Not only are your statistics flawed, apparently you also don’t know how to navigate a website. This is a regional overview and your can access separate pages for Greece and Italy. Unfortunately you can not search historically but I have seen the stats for October and November last year (remember, I was talking about 2015). It is circulating somewhere on Internet, look for it, and it shows 75% were males. I guess you have more data resources and capacity than the whole UNHCR combined with its big budget and highly capable statisticians working for them…I guess the German bureau of statistics also is nothing compared to you. Oh wait, the Germans are nazis, all of them.
You should indeed worry about human rights in Europe. In a couple of generations we all need to bow down to the desert god and his pedophile prophet cause with these numbers, birth rates and demographics Europe will be finished. Immigration is all about demographics, birth rates and cultural dominance. Already in Europe you now see auto-censoring and self adjustment cause “we don’t want to offend the new comers”. And themselves always use an undertone of violence if they don’t get their way. You see no-go zones which are lawless or sharia compliant but that of course in your optics is because of the racism in Europe. But don’t think they will have mercy for useful communist idiots cause they will not.
And if that not will happen then expect a hot summer, at least in 2016 and the coming years. Europol estimates that 3 to 5 thousand IS fighters came into Europe hiding among the refugees/migrants. If only 1% of them would commit attacks then we still talk about hundreds if not thousands of victims. The Paris and Brussels attackers came in exactly that way, barely checked. Brussels recently warned for more fighters inbound coming to commit attacks and the Italian and German intelligence agencies warned about attacks on European beaches this year. All these fighters came in because they were not properly registered and documented when they entered Greece and then moved up unchecked into Europe. Worry for far right regimes coming into place when that happens. Contrary to what you think I do.
“Auto-censoring” is another such hyped lie, as in the case of Cologne New Years Eve the “local” papers and stations were in fact reporting and reaching some 20 millions, only the national media was drunken or misinformed by a mistake of the Cologne police press-officer who in the meantime had to witness to the ongoing parliamentary investigations in Dusseldorf. Beside being impossible to report all incidents f.i. with Eastern fireworks news are also a product to sell by the media, weather-forecast and sport makes up to 50% of it and regarding state-run media they’ve a “duty to inform”, sometimes it’s getting only reported once a day though or in the traffic-news and in some countries already education at universities for authors and artists must obey the constitution; students have to subscribe to this also.
Insulting and incompetent garbage.
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So, I shall repeat: the official data for 2015 — published by the Greek police, UNHCR and Frontex — show around 35% of refugees were children, 20% female adult and 45% male adult. Kindly stop posting lies here.
You just took the stats from the UNHCR home page for the inflow of people since Jan. 2016, not 2015. If you look at the excell sheet over 2015 then it shows different numbers ranging from 53 to 57 percent males from the age of 18. Remember, in many European countries you are an adult at 16 plus many people lied about their age because it raises the chances of getting a visum.
For October and November it was according to the UNHCR 70-75% males. Now you can’t find that stat bar on the UNHCR site but it was there in November. That happened right after Merkel opened the gates.
You say that you “compile data and advise governments and the UN on such matters”. Well, perhaps they should find somebody else cause you give them wrong numbers.
I have the entire dataset for 2015 including the age groups of every single person recorded for that period. I do not know what you think are your qualifications to dare to argue with me about this — but clearly you are not competent.
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And do not start telling people working with statistical data your stupid amateur ideas about who is a child and who is not. As a matter of law, it is very important that children are identified and protected. Greece does not do a particularly good jobs of protecting them, but they are partially recorded. If anything, the official records of children arriving in Greece are considered to be understated, as many older teenagers avoid contact with the state as unaccompanied minors.
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May I offer a word of advice to you? When you encounter someone with genuine expertise on a rare topic, perhaps it would be sensible to keep your big mouth shut. Otherwise, you will reveal yourself as the arrogant self-opinionated fraud that clearly you are.
40% males aged 16-40: German official migration numbers of Mr Weise Jan – Sept 2015.
What do you care, it’s a German “problem” anyway – Krauts that die out are so brilliant – and nobody opened any “gates”, in fact the embassies are still closed unlike 1989 in Hungary when GDR-folks could storm the embassy in Budapest.
Also all these folks that are so worried about future generations – that they’ll never meet anyway as they are too old – never were or are worried about them when they sit in their cars and gas the whole planet; the revolt in Syria started as hunger revolts due to expensive bread because of climate changed dry land.
These concerned citizens are also so worried about Islam that they still make holidays in Turkey, a land that forces atheists into religion classes.
As Greece knows “illegal” migration since 1989 this propaganda won’t realize that it makes no sense at all, also it’s funny that 99% the same folks that hunt against refugees are the same that were hunting against Greeks since 2010 and after achieving their aims will come back on Greeks again. Just a look into their parties’ programs shows what they’re really like, lackeys of neolibs
What speaks against raising everywhere in Europe the welfare onto blooming Greek levels? Revolt? xaxaxa… All street cafés were crowded and you’ve seen’em all… Driving through Fyrom? Shame on you
I cannot respond to Xenos last reply so I do that here and then leave it at that. If you have all the datasets for the whole 2015 then you would see that 75% of all people entering Italy in 2015 were males. Throughout the whole year! In Greece in June that was 75% as well and then it slowly drops down. UNHCR data! Funny that he cites the data over 2015 that is exactly the data of people entering since 2016. Exactly. It cannot be that the data over the whole of 2015 would exactly match that. He just pulled that of the regional overview page of the UNHCR.
Xenos finds himself competent, also on the matter of the breakup of Yugoslavia a few topics earlier. He blames that on Milosevic’s nationalistic Serbian agenda but most historians agree that the breakup of YU was set in motion in the late 60s, early 70s with the rise of Croatian nationalism, instigated by Germany. Serbian nationalism was a response to that. Then Xenos claims that the UK didn’t see the breakup of YU coming. That is utter BS because it would mean that the UK intelligence is incompetent, which it is not. The violent conflict is Bosnia was the result of Sarajevo rejecting every plan for power sharing on the table including the Vance-Owen plan. Owen another incompetent Brit? British intelligence officials, government people and army people exactly knew the situation. The US backed Izetbegovic because it would give them ‘good standing in the Muslem world’ as Al Gore put it.
All these examples show that Xenos as a ‘student of history’ and of ‘rare topics’ is an arrogant self opinionated fraud himself.
And a technical point, to explain to your uneducated self, as to why the overall data for 2015 have non-uniform characteristics. This is because the nature of the migration flows changed over time. The earlier flows were smaller and were dominated by younger males. The later flows — after August — were much larger and dominated by families. Those families included large numbers of children, as Syrian, Iraqi and Afghan families are larger than European. When you aggregate the flows for 2015, these aggregations do not resemble the earlier flows which were 75% adult males.
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Moreover, there are substantial differences between the flows through Italy and those through Greece. You persist in ignoring this, and continue with nonsense that has nothing to do with the flows into Greece. Your arrogance and stupidity are really quite something.
Oh I absolutely agree that in the beginning there were more young males and that later more families came. And that for Italy it has been consistent all the time. Up to June it was around 75% for Greece. Then it steadily declines but it is still 60% in November that is male with 30% women and 10% children. After that it goes to the 45-35-20% ratio. But that still does not explain one thing. Cause in your own words “Those families included large numbers of children, as Syrian, Iraqi and Afghan families are larger than European”. So let’s assume then that one woman is accompanied by two or more children and 1 husband. That then still leaves at least -at least- half the men not ‘belonging’ to a family. That is why the numbers of 45-35-20 that you quoted -and that is the number of new arrivals in Greece since Jan 2016 you just took of the regional page of the UNHCR- are wrong. You yourself, Sir, have been exposed as a fraud. You are not an expert at all advising the government and the UN. That is just a fantasy just like your imaginary talks with Foreign Office officials from the UK about Yugoslavia. Your supposed insults say more about you than about me.
You persis with your nasty lies and insinuations. Several people here know exactly who I am, and my professional expertise. Your cynical and arrogant nastiness, that does not recognise others’ abilities when they are apparent, is your own problem. The fact is that the vast majority of refugees who arrived last year were Syrians — mostly in families. Some of the earlier migrations of single men are thought to have been husbands who didn’t want to risk the lives of their wives and children. Other single males — including Pakistanis — were a mix of refugees and economic migrants, although the distinction is not clear in law or practice.
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All of your malicious misinterpretation os statistics — and professional attacks on me — are with the sole intent of delegitimating the refugee flows. You play games with facts and figures, law and reality — to make a dirty political point. You will not succeed here, because most people commenting are decent people. Go to a rightwing propaganda site, where they will all agree with you.
the point is: one can have a different opinion based on whatever…
Statistics always require very careful interpretation. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics (Mark Twain). But there are also some factual data that cannot be argued, and this guy is claiming things that are wrong.
be generous (and I know you’re generous 🙂 ), let him claim whatever he wants
You are the one doing all the name calling, not me. You cannot debate without it and that makes you a bad debater. When you use insults and Ad Hominem to support your argument then you already lost the argument. Honestly, if somebody has a problem it is you.
KTG does not allow links, I think, so I use words. On the UNHCR site you can find a lot of statistics. You just bothered to pull the 45-35-20% inflow since Jan 2016 and presented it as an overview of 2015 which is wrong. You cannot counter my argument on your own words that “refugees have big families”. That would indicate most males are actually single males, consistent throughout the year.
Anyway, in the beginning there were high percentages of males and low total numbers. Then the percentages for males go down around June and total numbers go up. On the UNHCR site there is an excell sheet with numbers per month and total numbers for 2015. If you take the total number of males and divide them by total numbers of people (so men, women, children, unaccompanied minors) for 2015 and multiple that by 100 then you get the percentage of males, which is around 60%. That is not my 70-75% percent but certainly not your 45% (again, you just pulled that of the regional page).
In your own words, I am a layman (and you said a whole lot more about me) and you are “the expert”. Well statistics don’t lie. If you are an expert then you would have presented the right number. Either you are not an expert or you are trying to twist the numbers to present a political point. Just like the newspaper making it look as if all refugees are families with children.
Now, these people are just not statistics. Many have very sad stories. I always said that we should take the families and most vulnerable in (Europol said that 5 to 10K children have ended up in the sex industry in Europe! Greece lets single 14 year old girls live with grown men in asylum centers. That is scandalous and shows that the authorities are incompetent to protect them). I can cite problems all over Europe with single males but that is another story. The thing is, this crisis is not over and I explained how it came about. The political and social costs for Europe are potentially big.
Sure he makes no difference between Greece and Italy, he doesn’t bother about Greeks or Italians, he only hopes to instigate them against people he don’t know but thinks are Muslims and when refugees are gone he will switch back into the old fashioned, usual Anti-Greek hunting modus like “Kammenos sent us all these refugees and terrorists”. He is also not capable of the history Greeks and Syrians are sharing, nor that the anti-refugee aggression is a result of propaganda that aimed on instigating Anti-greek pogroms.
I agree 100%
You all know nothing about me yet you call me a nazi, right winger, moron, arrogant, incompetent, etc. So now I am also Anti-Greek hunting and involved in instigating Anti-Greek Pogroms as well?
On KTG and other sites I often defended the Greek and attacked whole Germany led European financial system that is willing to sacrifice Greece and Greek people in order to have a rogue capitalist system continue to burn societies in Europe into the ground in order to protect their profits.
You both respond irrational to my argumentation and use insults to support that. Well, then you already lost the argument.
And my apologies to KTG for the whole debate. You asked for less arguments last week.
yes I did. Guys, you exhaust me. These are no comments to the posts, but nonstop dialogue/debate among yourselves thus mis/using my website which is not even a forum. Not to mention the “nice” expressions like “moron” etc
Next time I see this repeating, comments longer than 40 words will not be even Approved. sorry guys.
When people post lies and false statistics on any site with comments, I consider it essential to attack such propaganda. When my professional expertise is caught up in this, I get very angry at the abusive comments that are often aimed at me.
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Sorry, KTG. I don’t expect you to tolerate professional abuse; and you should not expect me to tolerate it. And there is no other word than moron to describe people who think they know better than experts with decades of internationally recognised experience.
need to take my pc screen to service, I;ll reply later
You started the name calling. Not really a sign of “internationally recognised experience” and “professional expertise”. And I will leave it at that. I exposed you as a fraud on various issues. No point in wasting more time on you.
Again my apologies to KTG. At least I had the decency to do that.
You have exposed nothing and posted lie after lie here. Your arrogance indicates some sort of personality defect.
Now you are also an expert on personality disorders? Hihihi. More insults to cover your own incompetence. Remember, you started the insulting and persisted in them.
Fair enough. Just please place my last rebuttal above. I think that is fair cause he throws insults at me. Not that I care but I want to expose that he is wrong.
Ok, I am done here on this thread. Will not ruin KTG’s weekend not waste mine trying to argue with people that just throw name calling and insults.
Again sorry KTG. Have a good weekend and I hope your screen works again.
thank you. I was going to finish this thread anyway… by writing “Enough, guys!” such endless arguing brings nothing to nobody.