Sunday , June 23 2024
Home / News / Politics / Greece in Uproar After Cannes-Humiliation: Live Blogging

Greece in Uproar After Cannes-Humiliation: Live Blogging

Greece is in uproar after French President Nicholas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel imposed the date and the referendum question and froze the 6th aid tranche of 8 billion euro until Greeks say YES to referendum. It was short after midnight when Merkel and Sarkozy announced the referendum conditions putting a grave stone on Greece’s sovereignty, while PM George Papandreou was on stand by to make his own statements.

Merkel and Sarkozy stated the referendum must be on December 4th and that the question should be “YES or NO to €uro” and not on the loan-agreement as it was proposed by Papandreou.

As early as 4 in the morning the political developments started to take the country by storm.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos said NO to referendum on “EURO YES or NO”upon his arrival in Athens form Cannes.

Many wondered that Venizelos did take the same plane with the PM, while the majority wondered why Papandreou did not announced his resignation the moment he got out of the plane…

One after the other, ruling party PASOK deputies and government ministers openly said NO to referendum; some declared that they will not give the government a confidence vote on Friday.

Some PASOK MPs demand ‘national unity government’ right away and want Papandreou to resign as PM.

At least 5 PASOK deputies deny vote of confidence, i.e. Papandreou government is officially dead and the PM has finished his political career.

An extraordinary Cabinet meeting is scheduled for 12 o’clock noon.

11:05 am

PASOK has 152 seats in the parliament of 300. Two MPs (Kaili, Panariti) declared they will not give confidence vote but they haven’t resigned. Herewith Papandreou government has lost the majority in Palriament. 

11:11 am

Five Ministers (Venizelos, Chryssochoidis, Skandalidis, Reppas, Othonas) oppose the referendum.

11:23 am

Several Ministers and deputies meet at Venizelos office in Finance Ministry.

11:28 am

Papandreou – 3 Options & Consequences:

1) To insist on the referendum – PASOK will break apart – Early Elections under the ghost of bankruptcy

 2) To accept he can’t govern – resign from PM & PASOK and let his party elect a new chairman and conseq. new PM; elections will be avoided.

3) To take back the referendum – win time – secure the Oct 26th loan agreement

At the moment he keeps his cards closed and Greek press claim his counsellors are divided; some advices him to resign, some to continue.

11:40 am

FinMin Venizelos Challenges the PM? – Scenarios

Papandreou remain PASOK chairman, parliamentary group elects Venizelos as PM.

Venizelos to ask opposition parties to vote for the loan-agreement and establish a national unity government. To ask EU to release the 6th aid tranche on Nov 15.

Elections in due time.

Some Greek media claim, Venizelos had spoken about this scenario with German FinMin Wolfgang Schaeuble.

11:50 am

Should PASOK government fall, it doesn’t mean automatically early elections. The President of the Republic can invite one by one the political leaders and give them the mandate to form the new government. He will have to ask first conservative Nea Dimokratia and certainly Antonis Samaras will accept….

12:26 pm

Athens Stock Exchange at +2.51%

12:30 pm

Three groups within PASOK : 1) Papandreou supporters 2) Venizelos supporters 3) themselves supporters

12:31 pm

One more PASOK MP (Merentiti) declared no confidence vote to the government. PASOK has ‘149’ seats.

12:35 pm

PA(N)-S(H)O(C)K – from Greek internet

12:35 pm

Cabinet meeting to start within minutes. It was scheduled for 12 pm – PASOK time….

Sources from PM’s environment: Papandreou is not thinking of resignation; he will wait and hear what ministers say at the Cabinet meeting – “the Referendum belongs to the past”.

12:46 pm

The Iznogoud-Syndrom: “I want to become Caliph instead of the Caliph”

FinMin Venizelos – from zougla.gr

12:50 pm

“Unbelievable! He managed to destroy the country in fast track, in just two years” a friend on PM.

12:53 pm

“I never felt so ashamed in my life as last night” another friend on Merkel-Sarkozy announcing Referendum conditions.

12:55 pm

Conservative Nead Dimokratia and far-right LAOS demand : specify national unity government NOW!

13:00 pm

Government spokesman I. Mosialos joined the “Greek-Troika” group of ministers Ragousis/Diamanotpoulou/Loverdos.

13:02 pm

PASOK’s power in parliament has gone down to 146 seats as more MPs deny the government vote of confidence.

Sources from the President of the Republic say the President does not think of intervening  and does not intend to call convergence of the political leaders – at least, not now.

[At least Not before Cabinet meeting concludes and the PM officially declares … something.]

13:08 pm

PM’s close aidee R. Vartzeli to Proto Thema newspaper “The PM has not resigned and he doesn’t intend to resign.”

13:10 pm

Major opposition party, conservative Nea Dimokratia, leader Antonis Samars plans: “Establish a national unity government now. This government will have top priority to have the 6th aid tranche as soon as possible and lead the country to early elections.”

13:12 pm

With the exception of Greek Communist Party (KKE) all political parties want Greece to remain in the eurozone.

A view supported by the majority of Greek citizens who are scared to death by the option of return to Drachma, old Drachma, new Drachma, Euro-Drachma, ETC-Drachma.

13:15 pm

After the fiasco in Cannes, Papandreou was planning to ask major opposition party leader Samaras to support the voting of Oct 26th loan – agreement in the parliament, i.e. to pass it with 180 votes, instead of 151,  and he would take back the referendum option.

Does papandreou has any time left for this option?

13:18 pm

Cabinet meeting hasn’t started yet.

The “Greek-Troika” mutated into a “Greek-Tetrapack” Government spokeman Mosialos joined the Loverdos/Diamantopoulou/Ragousis ministers group who distance themselves from the PM.

13:32 pm

Papandreou adamant in not resigning – At a brink of a war with government officials – “Bring Me Down” –

PASOK parliamentary group divided: 1) Papandreou supporters (majority) 2) FinMin Venizelos supporters 3) Greek-Tetrapack (4 Ministers group) 4) themselves supporters.

13:42 pm

Papandreou hasn’t arrived at Cabinet meeting yet. Ministers have taken seats or walk around … smoking.

Also I have almost smoked a cig pack since the early morning… :((((( Papandreou puts my health at risk. Please, resign asap!

 13:44 pm

Signs showing “referendum is off the table” have clamed the markets – Athens Stock Exchange at +2.47%.

14:00 pm

Education Minister Diamantopoulou declared ‘deeply hurt by EU leaders statements” in Cannes.

Left-wing SYRIZA leader Alexis Tsipras demanded elections on December 4.

14:05 pm

Major opposition ND Antonis Samaras: Transition government to prepare the country for snap elections and ratification of the Oct 26 loan-agreement.

As Samaras steps back and agrees to the loan-agreement, does it mean that Papandreou remains in power and Samaras will support the loan-agreement in the Parliament under Samaras’ precondition that Greece will go to early elections right after that!?

Samaras supports an agreement that hasn’t been worked out yet…. tststs

14:21 pm

uncofnirmed information on Greek news websites: Papandreou will submit to the President a request for a national unity government after the Cabitnet meeting, that hasn’t started yet, although it was scheduled for 12 noon.

There are rumors that Loukas Papadimos will be lead the transition government as PM. However, Greece is always good for surprises…

14:26 pm

Cabinet meeting started with more than 2h delay – Papandreou will ask the ratification of the loan-agreement with broader majority, i.e. 180 votes out of 300 (state NET TV).

14:34

Reminder: The Referendum question is off the table!

14:37

Illustration by Steve Finney – a KTG reader :))))

 14:41

In a transition government neither Papandreou , nor Samaras can be PM.

Nea Dimokratia says no PASOK member can be PM.

14:45

First leakage from the Cabinet meeting : Papandreou allagedly said “We needed to threat with a referendum so that Samaras will take his responsibilities“.

What??? It was just a ‘threat’???

15:12

Papandreou allegedly proposed coalition government during the Cabinet meeting.

When will he resign? I don’t think, it will happen as soon as possible… then there is a PASOK parliamentary group meeting in the afternoon and I’m sure he wants to go there as a PM and not a ‘George Papandreou, former PM’….

 15:17

Unverified info: Papandreou allegedly said at the Cabinet meeting, that he will not resign but will ask the confidence vote tomorrow at the Parliament (ALTER TV).

15:19

Scenarios on the table of the Greek political Drama:

1) Coalition government PASOK – Nea Dimokratia – PM not elected person.

2) National Unity Government with participation of as many as possible political parties – PM not elected person

3) PM resigns and a new government arise with intervention of President of the Republic. Or he intervenes without the PM’s resignation.

“Interim” government is the same government as now until the country goes to elections. Interim government cannot ratify the ‘loan-agreement’.

“Transition” government is a new government until the country goes to elections.

 15:31

Papandreou allegedly said at the Cabinet meeting, he considers as ‘towards a positive direction the Samaras’ proposals” and that he authorized Minister Reppas and PASOK official Athanasakis to go and visit Samaras.

15:47

While government sources leak to the press that two PASOK officials are on the way to meet major opposition Nea Dimokratia party leader Antonis Samaras to negotiate ‘transition government’.

ND spokesman Michelakis dismissed the ‘contact’ claims, saying there has been no contact.

Not even a phone call to check whether Samaras is there….? We turned into a political and media circus today….

16:10

Papandreou told Cabinet meeting that “there will be no referendum!” 

No wonder, then after the Cannes humiliation and fiasco, hardly a PASOk deputy would approve a referendum. The referendum-bill would need 151 votes in a parliament voting session.

16:23

Nea Dimokratia and Samaras rejected coalition government talks with PASOK officials. ND say they accept talks only via the President of the Republic.

Latest info says that the President is awaiting for the political parties to decide.

 17:01 pm

Papandreou on Referendum / Merkel/Sakrozy & Cannes : “They did not tell us what question we will ask, but they told us how they will define it.”

“The final result of rejecting the Oct 26th package either via referendum, or via elections, or the parliament or weakness in implementing it would be the same: euro-zone exit.”

On national unity or salvation government: “Until today we were the government of national salvation, noboby else with us. We are national salvation government. For two  years, we were , nobody else. But I ask: can we hold on?”

He didn’t say anything on his resignation, but said about talking with Samaras on possibilities of a broader coalition government.

and more of what he said at the Cabinet meeting here (official gov’t website in Greek)

 17:25

Cabinet meeting concluded – Parliamentary group meeting to start any minute.

I’m afraid the PM will go so far as to the confidence vote tomorrow, Friday  at midnight. The man has nerves made of steel….

17:52

PASOK Parliamentary group meeting started. Papandreou speaks to the MP’s now.

There are rumors, he will ask his MP’s to ‘vote’ for him and will ask who this he can challenge him to do it…

 17:58

Papandreou to PASOK MP’s

– When we took office 2 years ago, our first target was to avert bankruptcy.

-We tried to improve the loan conditions step by step.

-We were used as experimental subjects.

-We manage to decrease the debt at -50%. An act of social justice for Greeks who carry the load.

– The sacrifices of the people were worth…

zzzzzz……………….

Nothing new and interestign so far.

-After the Oct 26/27 agreement, we experienced tragic scenes in this country. the qustion is not who holds the flag but who honours it (about the National Day parade where spectators attacked the Greek politicians in several Greek cities).

-Our participation at the EURO is in danger in our country. This has been confirmed yesterday.

-All these  decisions (negotiations etc) aim that we stay in the euro-zone .

– Last night we got an example of what it is that we saved the country.

-G20 must understand that rating agencies can not rule over the politics.

– (parade incidents) We became ridicule in the world – they also told me (in Cannes) that we can’t understand why people oppose the 50% debt relief.

– We do things of historical importance, we do things that were never done before, we do healing things.

-We ended at the referendum as a mean to achieve social alliances, a clear answer by the Greek people. I trust more the wise citizens than the political establishment.

-When I announced the referendum all partied reacted fiercely, but the citizen heard for the first time after very many years, that we count on his opinion [where did Pap live before coming to Greece?]

-We wouldn’t ask about Euro Yes or No, but about the loan –agreement and that would be a quarantee for remaining in the euro-zone.

They told me yesterday that if Greece want to leave the euro we can talk about it in ten years or so!

-Rejecting the loan-agreement package means exit from the euro (or something like that ; sorry I fell in a zzzz-trance)

Papandreou’s new slogans “healing” and “beneficial“. [and zzzzz-cial as usual]

– We -Pap &MPs – carry a cross and more than these they throw stones at us.

In short: the referendum came because there was lack of consent among the politicla parties to approve the loan-agreement.

-There must be a thorough discussion with Nea Demokratia on coalition government [who told him the people want PASOK/ND coalition?]

I think he said the word ‘beneficial’ 10 times at least.

Papandreou will go for a vote of confidence tomorrow Friday, he just said! That’s really beneficial, we can go to a bar and drink under the table tonight!

Im sure/hope etc the Greek epeople will appreciate our efforts. A big day for our homeland.

Papandreou concluded his speech under MP’s apploud – but I heard not all applaoouded. He said at the end Fin Min Venizelos will explain… what? I didn’t hear…

18:30

 Education Minister Diamantopoulou (from the Greek Tetrapack group) asked immediately that the parliamentary group debates the conditions of a coalition government.

18:40

Finance Minister Venizelos speaks now – He revealed the road map to EU/IMF parters, Nea Dimokratia and PASOK MP’s ahead tomorrow’s vote of confidence.

1. . we must convince our partners/creditors that we’ll do whatever is necessary for the bailout.

2 –We officially declare that there will be no referendum

3.  There looks to be signs of  consensus with ND to have a common deal for national unity government in the future.

4. There will be vote of confidence tomorrow

5. The banking system is safe and quaranteed

6. Loan-agreement to be ratified at the parliament with 180 votes

7. The 6th aid tranche must be released by Dec 15

8.  We must start ASAP negotiations w/ Troika on the new bailout agreement

9. We need 100% pariticpation in debt swap – PSI PLUS

10. We need political stability and a government

11. After all these the people will decide , that is we go for elections….

 OMG, he used the word ‘beneficial’ as well.

As I feel incredibly benefited, I take a break….

 19:07

PASOK MP Vaso Papandreou took the floor (althought it was not planned that MP’s will talk) and said:

“Mr Papandreou, you are out of place and time. The pictures we saw yesterday were grim. It was expected that procedures for a national unity government would start right away”.

Some deputies applauded her.

It comes out that the Ministers at the cabinet meeting understood that the procedures for the national unity gov’t would start next week. Nothing of this ‘agreement’ came through the speeches of Papandreou or Venizelos.

PASOK MPs are very disappointed , they request to speak but Papandreou has to leave and rush to the plenary session where the debate on the vote of confidence takes place.

Time for commercials and a music break…

 
 20:46
 
Twenty PASOK MP’s requested to speak, but they were denied as the PM had moved to another palriament hall. 20 votes less for the confidence vote, tomorrow?
 
Confidence Vote Debate at the Parliament right now:
 
Major opposition party, conservative Nea Dimokratia, leader Antonis Samaras said during his speech the debate:
 
He called Papandreou to resign – a precondition to talk about a coalition/national  unity government, call it whatever you want.
Samaras: “I asked Mr Papandreou to resign. If he thinks that I want to govern the country together with him, he is mistaken.”
 and

After his speech, Samaras urged his MPs to leave the Parliament. And so they did.
It looks that between Cabinet meeting and PASOK Parl. group meeting, Papandreou called Samaras to talk about the national unity gov’t and when Samaras asked him to resign, Papandreou came up with his 10 points road map… upsetting some of his ministers who now claim that their agreement at the Cab. meeting was … different.

 21:24 Live Blog ends for today

 I think, all of them are off to the nearest beach. Some are still debating at the Parliament.

***Vote of confidence will take place, tomorrow, Friday, November 4th, at midnight.***

Tomorrow midnight, they will be possibly turn into pumkins (Cinderalla magic) and debt-ridden Greeks might have free food for some months.

 

**** Thank you for following “Keep Talking, Greece” ****

 

 “We can solve country’s temporary cashflow problem thru an interim govt to conclude negotiate with Troika and receive 6th tranche.”

Check Also

Nationalist Greek Solution expels MP

The nationalist party Greek Solution expelled MP Pavlos Sarakis on Tuesday. The party, which won …

64 comments

  1. To possible solutions:
    Alt-Ctrl-Del
    or (for the real oldies)
    del c:\pasok\*.*
    del c:\*.*
    or (more drastic and secure)
    format c:

    • Sorry! Two mistakes. I should not make jokes 🙁
      Two possible solutions:
      Alt-Ctrl-Del
      or (for the real oldies)
      del c:\pasok\*.*
      del c:\*.*
      or (more drastic and secure)
      format Greece:

  2. So here we are:
    Now it is to dangerous to ask the peoples for their oppinion.
    Democracy is dying.
    Good luck to us all.

  3. What is this constant talk about “…to have the 6th aid tranche as soon as possible and lead the country to early elections”?!
    As far as I know the IMF rules state they need a ‘clear window’ of 12 months to disburse money to a country. I.e. there should not be an election on the horizon in the foreseeable future. So, there should be first elections and then the 6th tranche could be payed.

  4. “A view supported by the majority of Greek citizens who are scared to death by the option of return to Drachma, old Drachma, new Drachma, Euro-Drachma, ETC-Drachma”.

    Why? If you return to the Drachma, you would have full control of your own country again. You would be able to devalue your currency. It would make Greece very competitive in business and in the hospitality industry.

    • keeptalkinggreece

      at the current economic situation return to Drachma will crack down the average and low incomes. Then it would immediately will be devalued at what? 40-50%.

      • Yeah but you would remain a sovereign nation. Iceland dumped foreign occupation/banks from their political system and they are recovering. And they still have their souls. I never thought the Greeks would sell out their country like this, or anything other nation for that matter. Why would you leave your future and your childrens future to a foreign dictatorship…it ain’t democracy that we are seeing.

        • keeptalkinggreece

          I would propose a thorough restructure of the EU instead. It is us who pay them and it needs to be revolutioned.

          • You pay them. Exactly. They came to your country..the IMF/bankers/ corporations and told you that joining the EU was a great idea and gave you money as they have done in Ireland, Iceland, Spain and Italy and many others. Goldman Sachs and Draghi (current ECB head and ex goldman sachs guy) cooked the Greek books to hide the debt. They lied to you to get you to join the EU and then pulled the rug out from under Greece. Now you PAY up or be destroyed (that is a debt slave for ever) but you’re country and it’s riches will belong to them forever. It’s DEBT SLAVERY.

          • No disrespect, but have you learned nothing about the EU. They CAN’T be reformed, it was set up to be the way it is, the end game was to colonise the whole of Europe, taking control of the finances was their way of doing it, all the average peope can see is Germany & France ruling the roost, which is very true, but a deeper look into the EU would absolutely terrify people, unfortunately many only care about what tomorrow brings, which I understand, but they should also be thinking what they’re leaving their children/grandchildren, servitude, debt & no freedom. As I’ve said before ‘WHOSOEVER OWNS THE DEBT OWNS THE COUNTRY’ and they won’t let a little thing like people or democracy get in the way of their agenda. Referendums are anathema to Merkozy, and the rest of them, they will not allow a small country like Greece to get in their way. I think I can guarantee that Papa, if he’s ousted or resigns will have a nice cosy job lined up in the EU, as will some of the others, it’s a haven for failed, corrupt politicans/bureaucrats. Hope you got a good nights sleep 🙂

          • keeptalkinggreece

            I’ve learned a lot but a fully ‘indepentant’ Greece with no production, no money and such an ‘unreformed’ corrupt system what do you expect?

        • Back to the Drachma will for sure mean that the old nomenklatura will keep their claws into everything in this country. And that has to end or we will be in the same problems again in no time. Without Euro and a worthless Drachma.
          The only hope, IMHO, to end the status quo without bloodshed is in staying in the Euro, forcing through the deep changes. And I feel that a lot of Greeks feel the same way.

          • keeptalkinggreece

            yeap. so we feel. I wish I had time to write a short post on this because I get many questions on the issue.

          • Saddens me that people are thinking this way because Iceland did it. Goldman Sachs is vulnerable to fraud charges over what they did in cooking the Greek finances to appear legit. So you dump the EU, hold elections (no incumbents need apply) and threaten lawsuits if push comes to shove, write off all the debt (the bankers get the haircut which they well deserve) and you keep your country, your money and your leadership who can stop running back and forth to Brussels to get their orders…

          • The old nomenklatura will keep their claws into everything.— And you actually think a new nomenklatura will tie their hands behind their backs and be paragons of virtue, lol. When the EU get complete control, as it looks like they will, by Greece voting yes, which looks likely, their claws will rip the heart out of Greece, all national assets, many islands etc., will be auctioned off, don’t doubt it for one minute. Please or offend, all I can say is the EU don’t need to bring out its propaganda machine they have the Greek people voting for their own demise. Merkel & Sarky will be patting each other on their backs, their bullying/intiimidation worked a treat. I weepfor Greece, and what it’s about to do.

        • iaourti iaourtaki

          Referring to your next post: Joining the EU was in 1981 and without Junta in between it sure would have been earlier. It sounds like everybody who came later thinks Greece joined the EU in 2001 or so…

  5. Hi,

    I’m interested what the outcome of elections will be. Are there any englisch informations about polls? Which could be the result of the communist party?

    TIA,

    Arvid from germany

    • keeptalkinggreece

      as new political circumstances arise, puplbi surveys have …expired. pls, check in KTG-homepage in : Poll, Public Survey

  6. “Papandreou puts my health at risk. Please, resign asap!” LOL You are so right! And sigs are way too expensive nowadays, so this crisis should just explode and not simmer and puff. Several news websites barely stand up against the traffic and I have to work too!
    They shoot horses don’t they?

    • keeptalkinggreece

      youtube-link was deleted – no brutality against four- or two legged horses, pls

      • Short explenation: No brutality at all in that clip. Was a link to a song by Racing Cars – They Shoot Horses Dont They. It is a reverence to a 1969 film with Jane Fonda and a 1935 novel about dancing marathon contests in the 1930s economical crisis in the US. And the expression is about fatally wounded animals who, to stop further unneccesary suffering, are ‘put-to-sleep’. It now is a figure of speech, used often for ‘lost causes’ or, in this case, a person like Papandreou who is holding on and on and on and on and on…
        .
        Here we go
        Round and round the floor
        Together in time
        Here we sit
        It looks like this is it
        Whatever
        This time
        .
        It’s making no sense
        But we’ll stay here till the end
        Whatever
        This time
        .
        They shoot horses don’t they?
        They shoot horses don’t they?
        They shoot horses don’t they?
        .
        Carousel
        A crazy wishing well
        Whenever you fall
        It seems so long
        Just like a marathon
        The belle of the ball
        .
        It’s making no sense
        But we’ll stay here till the end
        Whatever
        This time
        .
        They shoot horses don’t they?
        They shoot horses don’t they?
        They shoot horses don’t they?

  7. If you stay in the Euro, I can’t see anything getting better. The bailout loans are just paying off your previous loans.

    How will the demonstrators react if they don’t get a referendum and more austerity is imposed on them?

    The Greek people do not deserve to be treated like this. They should at least be consulted.

  8. Greece should do what Iceland did. It would hurt only a while to return to the Drachma. The EU plan will be long term pain, loss of sovereignty and nationhood, and clearly has nothing to do with democracy. You will be ruled by foreign governments as you are NOW. I cannot believe the Greek people are so willing to sell their souls for this.

  9. Does anyone believe Papandreou? He’s a globalist. Every western politician has done nothing but lie in the past ten years. Wars for oil. Economic collapse based on creating much needed crises to push their agenda. That’s how they do it isn’t it? Create a crisis to re-write the rules, and then it’s magically solved in the way they wanted it all along which really is to benefit the banks/ corporations and make their political buddies richer. No wonder the leadership is pushing to join the EU and essentially engaging in what in any other time would be called treason. They have every intention of taking your money and enriching themselves.

  10. If anyone had any doubt about the undemocratic nature of the EU, today should set them straight. The EU has, in effect, orchestrated a coup within a sovereign nation and will install a puppet government. Greece will have a “Vichy” administration subservient to Brussels.

    • Spot on.

      When will hear the words of Europe’s best known megalomaniac, ‘Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer!

  11. iaourti iaourtaki

    For a return to Drachma the EU-master-races must give time to throw out Lidl and their plastic food and reorganize the country – without any imports except from UN-“imports” against hunger.

  12. When Merkel and Sarkozy dictate to a sovereign state how their electorate should be handled it is a sure sign that democracy is all but dead in the EUSSR. Referendums are not part of the Brussels plan, look what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty – they just held another until the right result was obtained.

  13. “- When we took office 2 years ago, our first target was to avert bankruptcy.
    -We tried to improve the loan conditions step by step.
    -We were used as experimental subjects.
    -We manage to decrease the debt at -50%. An act of social justice for Greeks who carry the load.
    – The sacrifices of the people were worth…”
    Well… he begins with 5 lies. Good start!
    =When they took office their first target was to spent, spent, spent. Remember “Ypargoun lepta”?
    =They did not try to improve the loan (that was what Samaras was complaining about all along). Instead they just hiked income and did not make ONE real substantial reform and/or privatization.
    =Greece got the Argentinian, and maybe more the Russian, treatment. Nothing experimental about that.
    =The debt has not decreased at all. In fact this government has spent more and more.
    =Until now the sacrifices are carried by those who never profited from the bonanza and who always payed up. They were scr*wed over and over again (pardon my French)

    • keeptalkinggreece

      oh, we are multi-culti here, we speak French as well 🙂

      • I just see Alexis Papachelas, the editor of Kathimerini, almost explode! So it is time to go for some GREEK Fries with bakalao, kalemares, gavros and a lot of local rose… Just to annoy those 300 who are playing their games and are playing with our lives. Oh and also to celebrate my loves birthday. 😀

        • keeptalkinggreece

          Oh, my best wishes to your love! don’t eat skordalia with the bakaliaros…lol PS I’m thinking of a tea with cognac like in funerals…

  14. Ελλάδα δεν εγκαταλείπουν ποτέ ξανά

    Stupid τρελό!

  15. The only hope, IMHO, to end the status quo without bloodshed is in staying in the Euro, forcing through the deep changes.———-I meant to put this on my previous post. I think you’re completely wrong here about it stopping bloodshed, IMHO once the German & French bureaucrats take their places in Greece and start the next round of austerity I believe serious violence & bloodshed will be inevitable, it’s one thing having your own politicans obeying orders from a foreign entity and issuing new austerity programmes, it’s another to have that foreign entity sitting in Greece doing it for them. I appreciate Greeks don’t have a lot of leeway, but as said you can’t have it both ways, they don’t want the austerity but want the euro, one comes with the other, and from your post the Greeks have chosen both. I add, that once the foreign entity begins their rape of Greece, because that will be what happens, the Greek people will also be relieved of every euro they have. All this chaos, poverty & loss of freedom to keep the euro/EU dream alive which benefits Germany, and to keep German & French banks in business, not forgetting Germany exporting.

    • keeptalkinggreece

      sorry, what do you expect me to do? start a revolution here? Come down to earth, pls.

      • I really don’t understand your reply? As to a revolution, I don’t think the Greek people need any help in that area 🙂 Seriously I don’t see what you’re getting at, I posted an opinion, obviously not to your liking, but it wasn’t in any way meant to be detrimental to Greek people, or offend anyone, sorry if it did.. As stated on another post if you’d prefer I’ll stop posting on this site.

  16. keeptalkinggreece says:
    November 3, 2011 at 7:49 pm
    I’ve learned a lot but a fully ‘indepentant’ Greece with no production, no money and such an ‘unreformed’ corrupt system what do you expect? ————-I suspect you’re getting quite annoyed at my input, and I’m sorry if I offended you, it wasn’t my intention. But an unreformed Greece is no different to a corrupt EU, who are even more corrupt then Greece, who favour Germany & France first and foremost, and always will, Greece, UK etc., comes way down the pecking order. IMO an unreformed ‘Independent’ Greece is preferable. Oh don’t think Greece is on their own in the corrupt dept. the UK politicans could probably teach the Greek pols some tricks.—————-I like this site, but if you’d prefer I didn’t give my opinion any more on this forum then please say so. 🙂

    • keeptalkinggreece

      I’m not offended but as I moderate comments, I’m tired to have to go through the same sterile propaganda over and over again.

  17. Greece is officially over. They will use this crisis to get what they (the globalist bankers) want. Greece will sign over their country, it’s land, it’s leadership to Brussels. And you will NEVER be allowed to leave. If Greece is still a sovereign nation, who’s passport do you carry? Who’s money do you trade in? Who does Papandreou answer to?

    Greece…is finished like all the rest. The globalists have all the cards and are already planning new wars for us to fight.

  18. Oh well it seems the Greek people are NOT going to be given a referendum after all, just heard on the news here it’s been cancelled, elections instead apparently.

  19. Papandreou has a record on saying things,only to unsay them a few days later.

    If the E.U. is to be as it is now,I don’t want to be a part of it.
    You ask me if I would like to be in a European Union ?
    I say that I’d like to be in a different European Union than the one that exists today.

    The European Union I hoped for,would be a union between different countries that share some common elements.A union that with all the respect would help share the cultoures of its nations,and bring Europeans closer to each other,make us learn more and understand better each other.A Union that would respect the different cultoures,costumes,and policies of its member nations. A more cultoural/civilization and less financial/market oriented.

    But the actual materialized E.U. is different.
    It’s a U.S.E (United States of Europe) wannabe that tries to copy the U.S.A. It’s goal is to turn its different country-members to states that all are governed by a High Authority.
    But this is done in the worst way recorded in history.
    First of all the different nations of Europe still consider themselves
    Greeks,Italians,Germans etc. They feel dinstinct from the other European nations.And of course none leader asked their nation if they would like to become a part of a bigger country.Peope of Europe where un-prepared for such a change because nobody told them.We only started discovering the truth now.
    But how is this unification procedure moves ?
    Very bad is the answer.
    German medias are telling Germans that the money loaned to Greece is German taxpayer’s money while they aren’t.They are money of extremely rich people,those who are called ‘bankers’,and are private banks money.
    At the other hand the now ex head of the I.M.F. went on to stereotyping Greeks as “Lazy people who doesn’t work and live by their government’s money”.
    While the truth is that if you have no job in Greece you die,simply because there isn’t such a thing as “Government’s aid to the poor”.
    Is this the United Europe ?
    How can we be unite if some stereotype us with hate,and others initiate dislike/hate against us by lying that other people get taxed for our well being while they are not ?

    And what about the Banks ?
    Banks are the most profitable businesses in the world,and they don’t get taxed.Schools get taxed,food get taxed,churches get taxed,museums get taxed,charity institutions get taxed,yet banks aren’t even taxed with 1%.Aren’t they private businesses,and aren’t all kind of businesses should get taxed ?
    That’s hypocrisy of course,but that is the world we’re living on.

  20. Unsterile comment, whatever the outcome in Greece, good luck.

  21. Thank you keeptalkinggreece for your informative, often witty updates- greatly appreciated.

  22. I want to second that remark by Clare: Thank you KTG for a job well done today. Again!
    I have one last reaction as Rose was kind of reacting to a point I made earlier: People like endofsovereignty and Rose, are totally missing the point. This is about Greece and there is no big external grant plan.
    If you would take away the whole outside world we would be in the same mess that we are in now. The same underlying problems would still exist. It is not about those lones. Yes, they are important but only used by now to pay the salaries of civil servants and the pensions. Pensionsfunds are robbed empty over the years. Pensions a lot of people have paid and are still paying large amounts of money for every two months. This money now is used to keep the status quo. To not change one iota. If there is no more easy money from the EU or investors then the government will ask the diaspora again for money. Or extort even more from the desent law obiding people.
    The Greek system is like a junkie: it will do everything to get it’s shot. Papandreou is a third generation junkie. He will let all hell break loose before he admits defeat, just like his father Andreas and his grandfather Georgios before him. Just to get his shot.
    “The Greek people know to well that the only danger is that Papandreou may win on his bluff. Already some of the most powerful Western leaders have acknowledged his right to call a referendum. Papandreou will also continue to accuse bankers and certain media companies of orchestrating his downfall, replaying scenes from the “Apostasia” of 1965. One way or another, his passage from Greece’s political stage will be fatal.”
    So, it is about Greece and don’t you forget that and try to read some great international scheme in what is happening here.
    Greeks are no-ones puppet. And that is what the international press, observers and people like you alsways seem to forget. Ok, I have to grant it to you, also a lot of Greeks are saying things like “GAP is a puppet”, “There must be a bigger power behind him”. And the most deadly one: “He is not a real Greek”. But they all know deep down that GAP is Greek and just acting like all of his forefathers and like his peers. Like their own neighbours and family members. A Greek newspaper editorial put it like this today: “…Prime Minister George Papandreou has managed to frustrate his fellow European leaders as a pattern begins to emerge: The Greek administration first makes an agreement with our international creditors and then fails to enforce it or asks for it to be changed.
    Greece’s premier is playing with fire — and he is doing an amateurish job at that.
    Meanwhile, it’s hard to believe that foreign leaders are calling on Greek political parties to come to an understanding while the latter are busy exchanging barbs and accusations showing absolutely no willingness to cooperate.
    Papandreou — and the other party leaders — are embarrassing the country in the eyes of the world.”
    And THAT might be the thing that will bring Papandreou and the whole perverted system eventually down: embarrassing the Greek people. The Greeks will put up with almost anything, but this might be the straw that breaks the camels back.
    Again, nothing to do with your precious money, with your grant ideas and EUSSR or whatever cliche people are throwing at this.
    Come here. Live and work here and look in the eyes of the people around here. For the first time in my life I see almost universal dispair in the eyes of my neighbours, my friends, my loved ones. No not the cliché dispair of Zorba. The one that can be laughed away with a song, a dance, a couple of smashed plates. Not the fake dispair of the union bosses with their cronies who see their third or fourth house being taxed or are realizing their 4th car might be not coming. Or those who worked 15 years and are now already 20 years on a state pension. No, this time I see real deep silent dispair. A total being fed up with this system here, the feeling of no exit. The feeling of living in a black box. People are out of a job now for two years. Taking care of their parents, their children, their uncles and aunts, their nephews and nieces. Their neighbors and strangers. While themselves making due with less and less money and paying more and more taxes. People who worked hard and lived very careful to be able to build a house, to build up a business, are now forced to think about leaving that all behind. No not to keep on leading a luxury life under the sun. But just to earn some money to feed those who are dependend on them. Nothing has changed. All structures are still in place. Every initiative to start something new is either killed off by red tape or, if the plan is a good one and might be succesful the state will take over and set up the business themselfs. And with that killing off the people who thought of it in the first place. Exporting olive oil to China? Great the state makes a deal for the 5 biggest oil companies and every small exporter is shut out of that market. Leaving the farmers again with tuppence.
    These things have nothing to do with Internationalisation, globalization, Europe or Grand Schemes of Big Business. No it is the Greek nomenklatura that is taking care of their own over the backs of the mayority of Greeks. Talk about democracy. In a country where there is no justice there can not be democracy. No democracy in the EU? Who cares! As long as we can not get justice from our own judges it is great to have some in Strasbourg. And if every rule and regulation is bend against you then it is great to have some rules and regulations that might be enforced. Be it out of Brussels. Those people are not democraticaly elected? Well, welcome to the Greek reality: neither are they democraticaly elected or apointed on meritocracy here.
    So, that’s why some of us feel that staying in the Eurozone might be our last and only chance to change something fundemental here.
    And if you want to fight Germans. Go ahead and fight them. But let us fight our own internal demons first and don’t distract us with your great generalizations and fine theorizations. The Greek politicians have made that into an art and we are used to that kind of twaddle.

    • Oh dear… bit of a long last point this… Sorry about that KTG. But it is late and nerves are raw. Or it might be the develish good stifado we had this evening instead of the fish I was boasting about. Those onions really makes one long-winded is seems. But it was SO worth it! 😉

    • keeptalkinggreece

      thanks and no problem.

    • People like endofsovereignty and Rose, are totally missing the point. This is about Greece and there is no big external grant plan. ——-I wasn’t going to comment on here again, but I felt I had to reply to AntonisX.

      1. Myself & endofsovereignty are certainly not missing the point

      2. I never mentioned anything about fighting Germans, just pointed out, like many others, that the EU is a German/French dominated entity, fact

      3. What you refer to as generalisations/theorisations, are in actuality, fact, unfortunately in time to come you will find it out for yourself.

      4. Do you think that Greece has the only corrupt politicans, they’re just better at it than most.

      5. You appear to think that myslf & endofsovereignty are ‘conspiracy theorists’, in a way you could say that about the EU is a ‘conspiracy’ in plain sight.

      6. Greece will get their bailout. But the UK not being in the euro-zone has to borrow money to contribute to it, like your corrupt politicans ours have told us bare faced lies, said we’d not put any more into it after the first round, well they did a 2nd time, craftily through the IMF, they doubled the contribution to £20 billion, which they had to borrow, and Cameron has now pledged to the same again. Taxpayers are being squeezed dry to pay for ther largesse. No, in case you think it, I don’t begrudge Greece getting bailouts.

      AntonisX, it’s pointless getting irate with myself & endofsovereignty for saying it as it is, although you don’t agree, we should all be standing together not being angry with one another. Greece, might be on its knees but there’s a few countries that aren’t that far behind, the way our government is borrowing money like its gone out of fashion to give in foreign aid, wars, pet projects etc., we’ll end up as bankrupt as Greece. Everyone keeps blaming the banks, and rightly so, but who allowd/encouraged the banks/corporations to get us in the mess we’re in, politicans, they bear most of the blame.

      • @rose —
        … that the EU is a German/French dominated entity, fact … —
        No it isn’t! The way our German politicans act are not the way the German people would act. At all, it seems that our German politicans are only puppets of the banks and interests of high finance.
        This is not mentioned yet here, but this is what a I feel like, among others. So -IMO- the EU is dominated not by countries, but by banks and interests of high finance. Believe me, it is also not the German/French people, which will benefit of all this unbelievable things!

        • keeptalkinggreece

          Where one should add that in case Merkel-Sarkozy lose their next elections, EU policies might change as well.

          • What? In Teutonia?
            With the Antisocialdemocratix who invented Hartz IV – one euro per hour slavery – with the half of the population never being on holidays and the western krauts still make 2 bux an hour more than the eastern “untermenschen” – except from some fat scumbag from the former commie youth that has “sex” with a fat minister of finance of a southern-east country?
            Remember Schroeder calling snap elections cuz he was too electrified to wait for Putin’s gas-money? And now we have soccer-teams owned by Russian Mafia…
            Who are responsible for hundreds of thousands wrecked workers those workers rights were stolen by forcing them into being small businesses – so called “independent” contractors – have no money for health care and in the end get busted because the tax laws are written in piggies own special language of power crazed douche-bags?
            Followed by their last step: Millions who won’t receive any pension cuz never they did make enough money to pay in!
            Remember some millionaire rapist being a candidate for French “socialists”? Millionaire socialist? What?

          • keeptalkinggreece

            Mammmma MMMia! At the end, I won’t dare to post a post on my own blog lol

      • Irate? Ah a word I didn’t know: angry – wrathful – furious – ireful – wroth. No not at all, just very tired.
        Pity, you still don’t get it. One more time: It is difficult enough to get to a situation where Greek institutions is rebuild from top to bottom (because that is absolutely necessary) without bloodshed, without people constantly climbing on high horses, high principals and high theories. Enough people are hiding behind this and Greeks are way more better at it then you.
        I think most of us here would be over the moon if we could manage to make Greece a country where at least the law applies to everyone. It would make so much difference. And after that we can fight for our rights.

  23. backwardsevolution

    Step 1 – stop paying on existing debt. Debt to GDP is now zero.

    Step 2 – nationalize all banks.

    Step 3 – protect all depositor bank accounts.

    Step 4 – issue new Drachma bond offering.

    “We have already been approached by several potential investors. It seems, that although the EU may be fair weather friends, many other nations or private investors are happy to support the new Greece. Sovereign wealth funds in particular are excited to be part of the new Greece and are comfortable that with our incredibly small debtload, not only will the new Drachma bonds trade well, there is little expectation of inflation. We have no need to “print” money like other central banks, because our debt to GDP ratio will only be 20% after the asset sales and new bond issues. With such low debt, many of the growth countries in the world will find it a valuable addition to their investment portfolio. We expect to have enhanced trade agreements with many of these countries shortly as well, in an effort to replace what the EU has decided to deny us.

    *** There will be claims that this cannot work, yet look at Korea, Russia, Argentina, Iceland, to see countries that either defaulted or were on the precipice that made tough decisions, played hardball, and went on to unprecedented periods of prosperity.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greece-eurozone-or-not-slavery-or-freedom

    • Great plan! Two or three minor points though: First. Why would those nations and private investors want to support “the new Greece”? What would they want in return?
      Second. What would we live on? Those “new Drachma bonds”? Done that the last 10 years or so and that didn’t work out so well, remember? And in contrary to the countries you mention, Greece is producing almost nothing of worth and has, no big raw material reserves. And how wonderful is the situation in Russia? I wouldn’t want that as my future, thank you.

  24. backwardsevolution

    “The Greek worker whose pay has been slashed in the “austerity” demanded by the banks serves the Banker Lords, as does the German worker who will be paying higher taxes to bail out Germany and France’s Banker Lords. Though the German is constantly told he is bailing out Greece, the truth is Greece is just the conduit: he’s actually bailing out the EU’s Banker Lords.

    We can clear up much of the purposeful obfuscation by asking: exactly what tragedy befalls Europe if all the sovereign debt in the EU was wiped off the books? The one and only “tragedy” would be the destruction of the “too big to fail” banks, not just in Europe but around the world. As the big European banks imploded, then their inability to service their counterparty obligations on various derivatives to other big banks would topple those lenders.

    While the political vassals call that possibility a catastrophe, it would actually spell freedom for Europe’s 500 million debt serfs. From the lofty heights of the Manor House, then the loss of enormously concentrated power and wealth is indeed a catastrophe for the Lords and their political lackeys. But for the debt-serfs facing generations of servitude for nothing, then the destruction of the banks would be the glorious lifting of tyranny.”

    http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly11/EU-debt-serfs-6-11.html

    • This point may make you happy: Not only the pay of “The Greek worker” has been slashed. Countless small and bigger businesses have gone bust the last two years. And their owners lost their income completely. So, if “property is theft” then I guess they got their just rewards? Just a pity that they also provided a lot of jobs, that have been lost now, too.
      To me a stevadore or traindriver who brings home more than 100.000 euro is as much a “Greek Worker” than those “EU’s Banker Lords”. Yes I do not want to bail out those either, thank you very much.

      • keeptalkinggreece

        well said, Antonis. People need a thorough picture of the Greek realities to understand…

        • Nothing will ever change here unless the system is changed. Which I find very difficult seing any hope for will happen, at least not in the nearest future..

          If all this continue, it dosnt matter if its euro, drachmars or monopoly-money, everything will go down the drain regardless.

          I just doubt very much, that the EU will ever allowe the people here, to get the system fixed. Its not exactly a motto of the EU ever to listen to the people. And if finally a vote comes, they will just ask again, until they get the answer they want.

          Just hope people here dont believe, that by getting the next payment, it will fix it all. Because the haircuts we have seen here so fare, is only the beginning.. It will get a lot worser!! And we will have no chance getting out of it.

  25. backwardsevolution

    “First they came for Irish Democracy. The people of Europe did nothing to defend them.

    So now they have come for Greek Democracy. Next it will be for what little is left of Italian Democracy.

    One day, emboldened by our silence, they will come for ours and it will be too late.”