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“Greeks are not real Greeks” claims German WELT, favoring a DNA-based EU-membership

Die Welt is a conservative daily close to Merkel’s Christian Democrat Party CDU. In this nicely set German New EU Order of  “kick Greece out of the eurozone”, Greeks have no place. For reasons not only economical but also historical and -what a surprise! – even racial. For the simple claimed fact that “Greeks already destroyed once the European Order,” so the article title in the history section of DER WELT and because modern Greeks were not descendents of the famous Greeks of the antique,  but a”Turkish-molded mixture of  Slavs, Byzantines and Albanians.” What is interesting and extremely worrying at the same time is that the WELT-author revives racial theories of the Nazis, as he quotes 19th-century Austrian scholar Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer, a xenophobe and a slavophobe, who had invented the “Greeks are not real Greeks” theory.

In the context of the DNA-based eligibility for EU membership, the thesis of Conservative WELT and CDU clearly implies that apart from the fake Greeks, neither real Turks, Slavs and Albanians should be allowed in the European family of undiluted blood and pour races.

Racists to the bones

The authors makes a reference to the Battle of Navarino in 1827, during  the Greek War of Independence (1821–32), where the Great Powers (Britain, France and Russia) destroyed the Ottoman armada thus creating a breakthrough in the Greek Independence War against the Sultan.

However, according to the author the motives of the Great Powers were not geostrategical as every political scientist would think nowadays, but noble and romantic.

“The three powers did that actually against their conviction (peoples should not rise up against their monarch), but because of pure romanticism because the classically educated Western Europeans did not want the descendants of Homer, Socrates and Pericles to be further suppressed by the Turks.”

Then the author’s argumentation falls like a heavy sledgehammer on the heads of those believing that Germany had learned from the fatal mistakes of its past, it had removed from skin and uprooted from soul the racism of national-socialism. The WELT-author explains to its German conservative readers that the Great Power helped the Greeks “but for the wrong reasons.” And this because “the Greeks were not real Greeks” – so the WELT-claim – in terms of racial purification,  “inferiority – superiority” duality and cultural arrogance of the European North towards the European South.

The idea the Greeks of modern times were descendants of Pericles or Socrates and not a Turkish-molded mixture of  Slavs, Byzantines and Albanians, was a belief among the educated Europeans. Also the architects of the EU could not escape this belief.  In this senses, they brought the clammy Greece into the European boat in 1980. The consequences can be admired every day.”

The idea that Greeks are not real Greeks is not new and it has not be invented by the WELT-journalist. It first came up by Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer a Tyrolean traveller, journalist, politician and historian of the 19th century who is “best known for his controversial (some even say racist) theories concerning the racial origins of the Greeks.”

Fallmerayer’s  Greek theory

Fallmerayer devoted his scholarly activities to another Greek-speaking region of the Middle Ages, namely, the Morea – the peninsula of Peloponnese. In particular, he developed his theory that the ancient, “Hellenic“, population of the south Balkans had been replaced during the Migration Period by Slavic peoples (350-800 AD). A similar idea had already been proposed by the British traveler William Martin Leake, but Fallmerayer turned it into a theory, which he advocated with characteristic zeal.

The first volume of Fallmerayer’s Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea während des Mittelalters appeared in 1830, and he expressed his central theory in the foreword as follows:

“The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out in Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple — indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent…. Not the slightest drop of undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.”

This phenomenon was further interpreted by Fallmerayer as an indication of the potential of the “Slavic” nations to overwhelm the “Latin” and the “German”, a line of thought which he would later develop in his political writings. He further argued that the Great Powers who had supported the Greek War of Independence had been led by a “classical intoxication” to misjudge the character of the new Greek state.

However, Fallmerayer’s not so scientific theories were not purely scholarly. They were politically motivated. The scholar was a devoted supporter of Austria’s Realpolitik and the then empires desire to expand southwards into the Balkans and antagonize Russian interests in the area

Fallmeyer who was “considered one of the great 19th-century intellectuals in the German-speaking world” was a proven slavophobe. and his racist theories were a popular component of the Nazi Propaganda.

“Fallmerayer’s theory was popular as part of the Nazi propaganda in Axis occupied Greece (1941–1944) during World War II, when classically educated Nazi officers used it as an excuse to commit numerous atrocities against the Greek population.” (via wikipedia).

Greek DNA & WELT readers

But the WELT-journalist knows very well the daily’s audience and seems to speak right into the racist DNA of its readers. It is interesting and scary but not surprisingly at the same time, to see how many supposedly classically educated Germans in the comments section on the online edition express support of this racial theory claiming that the very ancient Greeks (Dorians, Ionians) were big, blond and blue-eyed, while the modern Greeks are mainly black-haired and brown-eyed.

Some Comments translated into English by KTG:

1. Especially the people living in Greece nowadays have absolute nothing to do with the ancient Greeks.

2. Dorians and Ionians were blond and blue-eyed, and big. Not to compare with the brown-eyed dark-haired Greeks of today.

3. Strangely, the Mycenaeans were black-haired and black- or brown-eyed brown. They were probably not relatives to the Ionians, right? !

4.  No of course not. Dorians and Ionians were Germans, the Mycenaean were Slavs, the Minoans were Egyptians and I’m a MartianLet’s ignore all genetic tests that  prove the contrary.

5. The Mycenaeans were migrants from the North.

DNA-based EU eligibility

In a ironically soft criticism to DIE WELT article, the German edition of popular VICE website notes:

“.. to suggest that Greeks were somehow too Turkish overbuiltfor the EU and that they had gambled away any claim to EU membership because of their racial purity that’s an interesting interpretation of European history.

But perhaps the author is just jealous because the Greeks, unlike his ancestors actually indeed got their One Thousand Year Reich.”

It must have been with certainty a huge moral relief for the “Kick Greeks out of the Euro” supporters to have created a contemporary scapegoat based on historically and scientifically questionable race purification theories. Never mind the racist aspect… Main-thing is, they can justify that Greece was always bad for Europe, while in contrast Germany was always good. Apart from the fact that Germany sent to death 16 millions in the WWI and 50-85 millions in the WWII, thus disturbing the German ideal of Heile Welt, the perfect idyllic world of tranquility and ignorance for a couple of years..
 PS DIE WELT is not BILD, and classic education does not provide immunity to  “racial intoxication”.
Awaiting for the moment when Two-Speed EU technocrats will be performing DNA tests to future EU members
“European ideals”, my a**
 

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71 comments

  1. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    Unfortunately Fallmerayer didn’t try to tell this the Maniotes, he is also a huge influence on “the Focus”, FAZ and FAS, also Markwort, the boss of Focus couldn’t resist to fartz “The virus shouldn’t be called “Trojan” as inside the horse were Greeks”

  2. Sure, you are right,
    but let me know, whats their language there in Greece?
    I think they should speak Turks right? or Albanians? or..? What their language today, help me.

  3. Well, for those who are telling me that invoking the Nazi heritage of the Germans is just an insult, here is yet more evidence that the Nazi mindset is alive and kicking. The Nazis were very concerned about racial purity, and how the superior German breed should dominate Europe.

    Could someone German please explain to us how this article in Die Welt is not a reinvention of Nazi ideology? After all, the Jews would also be excluded by the DNA “purity” that is being advocated here. This is just sick, to be honest. I am (for once) happy to be a Brit: at least our racists do not dress up their bigotry in crap like this.

  4. Yeap there is a 2-3% turkish speaking, and about 1-2% slav speaking of the Greek citizens. Also there are all the languages of the world spoken from legal or illegal immigrants trying to reach central Europe mostly. Is that clear?

  5. There is no problem with Greeks, or anyone else, being of complex genetic origin. And to be frank, first of all the ancient Greeks were not all of the same ethnic group anyway; and secondly, those with racial purity (such as some Royal Families) end up with malfunctioning brains and inbred genetic defects such as “bleeders”.

    No, Greeks should be proud of their origins — whatever they are. And the Germans should reflect on their own history, and feel ashamed. It’s that simple.

  6. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    You’d better ask this nonsense the growing number of tourists and business people from Turkey that visit Greece, none of them will talk such bullshit and if you are capable to read closely you will figure that such German speaking racist propaganda won’t result in Turks against Greeks but the opposite as it was also such kinda German media that pointed to the Greek victim of the NSU-Nazi-murder-series as a “mistake” and at least they all had one big partner in growing up in Germoney: Racism!

  7. The Greeks today are NOT the Greeks of ancient times, that’s simply a fact so why get your knickers in a twist over it? Many Greeks will happily tell you this themselves. I suggest those people angry by this fact pick up a history book or better still stay away from adult topics!

  8. First of all, I never said that invoking the Nazi heritage of the Germans is an insult. On the contrary, Germans should be reminded often that because of that heritage they have absolutely no moral authority what so ever. BUT IN CONTEXT. Shouting Nazi at somebody simply because he/she is German is as pointless as is shouting communist at somebody who takes a standpoint of social justice before finance. In both cases he who shouts the insult weakens his position of discussion by turning it in to an insult-contest.
    I have not read the article in WELT yet, but have equally so no reason to doubt the validity KTG’s article above. And in this case, because of its context, by all means shout as loud as you can, I do as well. This is a thundering disgrace, a perfect example of the Nazi heritage raising its ugly head once again. Given this, and the rise of the various nazi and neo-nazi parties in the world, it is high time to quote Berthold Brecht

    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again.

    and heed the warning. It is also high time to remember that shouting loud is not a substitute for action…

  9. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    The problem is that German media points that shit out since 5 years in their typical racist way and also connects it to the crisis. As usual in articles like this they come up with the Greeks were broken from the beginnings of their state, defaulted that often, often mixed up with that it would have been better if they still would be under Turkish powers and always they forget to mention that Greece had to pay reparations to the Ottoman Empire and that they had to buy weapons to free the rest of Greece from the Ottomans and that Greece was broken like a free America would be when the European Americans leave after 400 years.

  10. There are two approaches, either you can say that obviously and logically no younger generation of men are the same generation as their parents, no man steps in the same river twice, everything changes including people thus obviously Greeks of today are not the Greeks of 500 BC.
    And there is the second approach (the idiotic one) the one that tells us that you can give names, qualities and characteristics to different patterns of genes.

  11. agatha mantanes

    A modern day Nazi speaks, I hope the world is listening.

  12. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    But there is a problem with highly acclaimed authors like Hensel writing a novel about Greece there the main character is told to leave a nationalist gathering because of her blond hair and as she asks about all the other blond women in this meeting she’s explained that it’s dyed hair.

  13. Now that is a clear case of latent (or in thecase of some of the comments not so latent) raciscm. The author tries too hide it behind historical pseudo arguments and facts, but neither side is fooled(not us and not the right wing idiots that make up most of theri comment section). Its not really surprising since Welt is about as right wing as a daily newspapaer gets in ger.

    I still dont understand the connection to dna based eu membership, was that in some other welt article before? If so this is a super ridiculous proposition and any politician proposing it could immediatly say goodbye to his or her üpolitical career.
    Also for accuracies sake KTG you added the turkish-molded in the first sentence, nowhere to be found in the original.

  14. “First of all, I never said that invoking the Nazi heritage of the Germans is an insult. On the contrary, Germans should be reminded often that because of that heritage they have absolutely no moral authority what so ever.BUT IN CONTEXT. Shouting Nazi at somebody simply because he/she is German is as pointless as is shouting communist at somebody who takes a standpoint of social justice before finance. In both cases he who shouts the insult weakens his position of discussion by turning it in to an insult-contest. ”

    The but in context makes the first two sentences somewhat okayish for me but let me understand you correctly. Am I supposed to consider the value of any moral arguement I make to you null and void simply because I am german?

  15. keeptalkinggreece

    it was on original’s page 2 or 3

  16. So they took it down? Wouldnt surprise me given the content. Or am I just too stupid to find it? If anyone has a link id very much appreciate it.

  17. I dont have a problem when you call racists/neo nazis what they are. I have a problem when people equate germans today with nazis, simply because its super wrong. I have an even bigger problem with gernal inflation of nazi referecnes here in this forum as well as in many other places, because it trivializes what happened back then.

    Ill defer final judgement over the welt on the dna-stuff until i read it in original, but for now just let me say that any politician suggesting something like this would immediatly be finished.

  18. “Greeks are not real Greeks” one of the many typical George Orwell 1984 sentences of the euro-Greek Odyssey. Not to say its borderline racism

  19. The answer that I will give, is simply that Germany lacks moral authority owing to its terrible modern history. As for individual Germans, this depends very much on whether they pursue a traditional Nazi-style agenda (dressed up with neoliberal economics) or engage in enlightened discussion about how to manage the problems of the eurozone that they are primarily the creators of. The vast majority of Germans now fall into the first category.

  20. But Germans are real Germans from ancient times to today right!! I think this WELT character better go & do a DNA test & see what a genetic throw back they are before trying to insult the Greeks.

  21. It seems the racial purity laws are making a comeback. When will we see the thugs burning Greek restaurants?

  22. You can’t find it there because it is not written there. I read the article already the day it was published because somebody posted it on facebook. It had one page. Nothing like this was mentioned. I also disagree with your interpretation of the article. If you calm down 😉 and read it again you will find out that the main theme is not if the greeks are greeks by dna or not. He critizises, that there were people that desperately wanted Greece inside the EU because of the idea that there can’t be a Europe without the descendants of the ancient Greeks, although Greece was not ready for this yet. You can like DIE WELT or not (I don’t), but THIS article by KTG is bad propaganda and extremly manipulating. Also comments were translated that were OBVIOUSLY ironic to “prove” how bad are the Germans (btw. nazis by dna, as we learn from this very neutral and non-racist article by KTG). THANKS KTG, articles like this is what we need, with the words turned upside down to spread a little mistrust and misunderstanding! Παιδιά… μπράβο!

  23. German media are full of hate statements against Greeks. This Die Welt article is a shame, how the author is trying to imply there is something wrong with Greek “DNA” is disgusting.

  24. Am I supposed to consider the value of any moral arguement I make to you null and void simply because I am german?

    No. But a moral JUDGEMENT on a country and it’s people, is indeed not something any German, given the history of Germany, has any right to make. And sadly enough, history tells us that representatives of the German people don’t tend to argue and discuss, they tend to judge and order about. Wolfie being a perfect example of why ultimately people will not trust anything Germany says or does. Yes indeed, you will always, just like everybdoy else, be equated with the worst execcess of you history and the politicians who created it. And your history has left some seriously deep-rooted distrust in the psyche of many, many people…
    fyi http://m.welt.de/geschichte/article142305296/Griechenland-zerstoerte-schon-einmal-Europas-Ordnung.html

    Just in case it has been taken down, which would be an admission of being wrong and thus a serious surprise, here is the full German text (without images)

    In diesen Tagen erinnert sich Europa an den Wiener Kongress, der dem Kontinent 1815 die Zukunft wies. Zwölf Jahre später lag das Bündnis der Großmächte in Scherben. Der Grund hieß Griechenland.

    Im Herbst des Jahres 1827 konnte der junge Historiker Leopold Ranke eine Erfahrung machen, die seinen Aufstieg zu einem der berühmtesten Denker Deutschlands prägen sollte. Statt in Wiens Archiven nach staubigen Akten zu wühlen, empfing ihn mit Friedrich Gentz einer der wichtigsten Strippenzieher Europas. Als Intimus des österreichischen Staatskanzlers Metternich war der Hofrat über die Weltlage bestens unterrichtet. Bei einem Besuch wurde Ranke Zeuge, wie Gentz eine erschütternde Nachricht erhielt. Der hielt mit seiner Meinung nicht hinter dem Berge: Das System der Heiligen Allianz war zerstört.

    Das Ereignis, das die Ordnung Europas zum Einsturz brachte, war der Vormarsch einer Flotte aus englischen, französischen und russischen Schiffen im Mittelmeer. Dieses kombinierte Geschwader vernichtete am 20. Oktober 1827 die türkisch-ägyptische Flotte bei Navarino vor der Westküste der Peloponnes. Damit hatten drei Großmächte Europas entschieden, was zu verhindern sie sich zwölf Jahre zuvor verpflichtet hatten: nach der Niederwerfung Napoleons keine Revolution gegen die bestehende Ordnung zu dulden. Die Schlacht von Navarino aber bedeutete den Sieg des griechischen Aufstandes. Sechs Jahre zuvor hatten sich die Griechen gegen die osmanische Herrschaft, unter der sie seit fast 400 Jahren mehr schlecht als recht gelebt hatten, erhoben. Zwar hatte der Sultan an dem Wiener Kongress, der 1814/15 Europa neu geordnet hatte, nicht teilgenommen. Dennoch torpedierte ein Aufstand gegen ihn die internationalen Grundsätze, auf die man sich in Wien geeinigt hatte und zu deren Schutz wenige Monate später in Paris zudem die Heilige Allianz zwischen Österreich, Preußen und Russland geschlossen worden war. Diesem Pakt waren fast alle europäischen Staaten beigetreten; nur England und der Papst blieben abseits.

    Als wichtigstes Mittel auf dem Weg zu einem “immerwährenden Frieden” galt die Sicherung der legitimen Ordnung. Das aber bedeutete, dass jeder Aufstand als Revolution verstanden wurde, der den Bündnisfall auslösen würde. Warum dies ausgerechnet im Fall der Griechen nicht geschah und deren Angriff auf das internationale System sogar durch einen Militärschlag der Großmächte zu ihren Gunsten sanktioniert wurde, erklärt sich zum einen durch kalte Staatsräson, zum anderen mit dem (Wieder-)Aufstieg einer neuen Macht: der öffentlichen Meinung.

    Um das Prinzip der Restauration in Europa durchzusetzen, beschäftigte ihr mächtigster Statthalter Metternich ein dichtes Netz von Agenten und Zensoren. Vor allem in den deutschen Ländern knebelten die Karlsbader Beschlüsse Publikationen und Gespräche. Da kam der Aufstand der Griechen den mundtot gemachten Bürgern gerade recht. Denn ein lautstarkes Eintreten für die Rechte unterdrückter christlicher Untertanen des Sultans konnten schwerlich als Opposition gegen die heilige Ordnung Europas gedeutet werden.

    Der Stellvertreterkrieg im Orient

    Dies umso weniger, als auch Metternich, Gentz und ihre Mitarbeiter als gebildete Männer natürlich davon überzeugt waren, dass sie erst das Erbe der antiken Griechen zu guten Europäern gemacht hätten. Das Verfahren erinnert an die Rolle des Vietnamkrieges für die Bürgersöhne des Westens: Ein Guerillakrieg im Orient gab der “Intellektuellen-Religion des Neuhumanismus Gelegenheit, sich zu aktualisieren und zu politisieren”, wie es der Historiker Heinz Gollwitzer beschrieben hat. Europas öffentliche Meinung, die ihre Macht schon einmal während der Französischen Revolution erfahren hatte, erhob lautstark ihre Stimme. Sie sollte, auch dies ist ein Ergebnis des griechischen Aufstandes, nie mehr auseinandergehen.

    Während Metternich mit aller Macht versuchte, den leidenschaftlichen Philhellenismus unter Kontrolle zu halten, ließen sich seine Partner von anderen Interessen leiten. Für Preußen lag das Osmanische Reich hinter dem Horizont. England und Russland aber erkannten, dass ein Pulverfass auf dem Balkan ihren strategischen Zielen gefährlich werden konnte. Das war aus Londoner Sicht eine intakte Türkei, die dem russischen Streben nach Süden widerstehen konnte.

    In St. Petersburg sah man das naturgemäß anders. Dort gab man sich als Schutzmacht aller orthodoxen Christen aus und verschleierte damit das Ziel, am Mittelmeer Fuß zu fassen. Nicht umsonst hatte eine Geheimorganisation das Signal zum Aufstand gegeben, die in Odessa gegründet worden war. Griechischstämmige Offiziere der Zarenarmee hatten die ersten Schüsse abgefeuert. Während Metternich Österreich aus diesem Spiel um Länder und Positionen heraushielt, schwenkte Frankreich auf den britischen Kurs ein und machte den osmanischen Besitz von Bosporus und Dardanellen zu seinem Anliegen. Nach den Regeln des Ancien Régime wäre das auf den Krieg zwischen drei Signatar-Mächten des Wiener Friedenswerks hinausgelaufen. Das aber hätte für England und Frankreich bedeutet, gegen die lautstarke Meinung der Öffentlichkeit zu handeln.

    Aus diesem Grund wurden die Mittelmeer-Geschwader der drei Großmächte zu einer Art humanitärer Aktion zusammengeführt. Ihr britischer Kommandeur erhielt den Auftrag, vor der Drohkulisse seiner Kanonen von den Türken die Zustimmung zu einem sofortigen Waffenstillstand zu erzwingen. Weil subalterne Soldaten dabei die Nerven verloren, kam es zu einer Schlacht, in der die türkisch-ägyptische Flotte in Flammen aufging. Danach war an eine Fortsetzung der bis dahin erfolgreichen osmanischen Offensive nicht mehr zu denken. Die Revolution hatte gesiegt und sollte 1830 auch Frankreich, Italien und Polen erschüttern.

    Aber nicht nur als Stellvertretersymbol für die unzufriedenen Untertanen von Metternich und Co. hatte Griechenland eine zentrale Rolle bei der Erosion des Wiener Friedensordnung von 1815 gespielt. Der Sieg des Philhellenismus bekräftigte noch einmal die humanistischen Ideale, die ihn trugen. Die Vorstellung, dass es sich bei den Griechen der Neuzeit um Nachfahren eines Perikles oder Sokrates handeln würde und nicht um eine Mischung aus Slawen, Byzantinern und Albanern, wurde für das gebildete Europa zu einem Glaubenssatz. Dem konnten sich auch die Architekten der EU nicht entziehen. In seinem Sinne holten sie das schon 1980 klamme Griechenland ins europäische Boot. Die Folgen sind täglich zu bestaunen.

  25. Kseni, thanks so much. Correctives like that are so rare on the internet.

  26. Try reading the comments to the article. As KTG clearly, and correctly states under the heading Greek DNA & WELT readers,

    It is interesting and scary but not surprisingly at the same time, to see how many supposedly classically educated Germans in the comments section on the online edition express support of this racial theory claiming that the very ancient Greeks (Dorians, Ionians) were big, blond and blue-eyed, while the modern Greeks are mainly black-haired and brown-eyed.

  27. So this is the sort of ultra right wing illiterate racist propaganda that guides von merkel’s political philosophy? Gutless German trash

  28. still… where exactly is the part that is “favoring DNA-based EU-Membership”? You must have a lot of imagination to interpretate that, and – btw – sick imagination.

  29. keeptalkinggreece

    it doesn’t need much of interpretative imagination. DIE WELT is clear on that.

  30. TURGUT OZAL:
    ”WE HAVE NOTHING TURKISH IN OUR CULTURE ALL THE ELEMENTS ARE GREEK”IF YOU SEE US AS TURKS YOU MAKE A BIG MISTAKE.WE HAVE NOTHING TO BE CALLED TURKISH,WHAT we HAVE IS TAKEN FROM THE GREEKS.EVEN THE NAME OF MY SON EFE IS GREEK

  31. –“It is my personal reaction to the living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite.”
    -Carleton S. Coon.

    Famous anthropologist Buxton who had studied Greek skeletal material & measured modern Greeks, stated:
    “The modern Greeks possess physical characteristics not differing essentially from those of ancient Greeks”

    “Greeks possess none of the lineages denoting African ancestry within the last 5000 yrs (Semino et al 2004)

    Dr Tocaver professor of ethnography in the Unv of Moscow stated that:
    “The people of Mod. Greece is basically descendant of the ancient population of the Balkans & Aegean Islands”

  32. Stanford geneticist Cavalli-Sforza used aDNA to determine
    & map principal components that account 4 genetic variation in Europe
    what is a striking demonstartion of the persistence of the Greek genetic signature through time, principal components show a cline centered in Greece as well as Italy & Anatolia this is strongly reminiscent of GREEK
    Not only is the Greek genetic legacy clearly detectible today but it is among not only Greeks, but all neighboring populations of partial GREEK ANCESTRY

  33. Anything to hide the fact that German and European taxpayers bailed out German banks and not Greek society.
    But then again, the ancient Greek would have been pissed off by the modern Greek (whether there is any DNA similarity or not) to see what kind of mess they made of their country.

  34. Ethnic purity theory is a myth
    No Modern people in any country r pure
    From all ppl in the world modern Greeks r the closest relatives of the ancient whether Germans like it or not
    We are Greeks not only coz it is genetically proven by various studies, but we have the evolution of the
    same language
    same alphabet
    same lands
    same traditions
    same names
    continued recorded history CULTURE etc

    How is it possible 4 the people who live in the same region, speak the same language have same alphabet, same names & culture not 2 b descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the region?
    Similarly we could say that modern Italians rnt descendants of Romans & modern Chinese people rnt descedants of ancient! Its more than obvious that scopis driven by their disability to confront the proven ELLENIC origin of Macedons, use obscene methods to cancel our Ellenic origin
    We rnt talking about purity. All nations develop & have occasional influences & limited migrations of populations. This fact despite the limited changes cannot totally erase any genetic structure & the definition of a Nation
    -ALL OUR HISTORY PRESENTS A CONTINUATION, ALL RECORDED BY HISTORIANS, WE R ELLINES, OUR HISTORY WAS WRITTEN, FROM ALL PERIODS U CAN C THE OBVIOUS CONTINUATION OF OUR NATION including Ellines from Ellenic Macedonian state.

  35. “No. But a moral JUDGEMENT on a country and it’s people, is indeed not something any German, given the history of Germany, has any right to make”
    This I can agree to somewhat. I dont think it wise to judge whole countries anyway, you can judge single people or events but how are you to judge a country without many many people lansing on the wrong side of that judgement. I would also add that a certain sensitivity is appropriate, meaning I certainly would talk different about this to a holocaust survivor, not because my opinions change but of respect for his or her person.
    I would still very much disagree with the notion that there are any rights/value I do not possess just because of being german.
    That all being said, I read the whole article and while I appreciate you reposting this, what i wanted was the article about the dna-based membership, which i assume is a different article or a now removed addon to this one???? I the part you posted(which is the same thing I found via the link) there is no mention whatsoever about anything like this(it is still full of underlying racist tones)

  36. Fallmerayer “supposed research”
    As part of the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II, Nazi authorities distributed brochures that proclaimed the discontinuity between ancient & modern Greeks”with the object of stifling any sympathy or admiration which the ordinary soldier might feel for the present-day Greeks as descendants of the ancient Athenians or Spartans..

    This propaganda was only indirectly related to Fallmerayer’s outrageous work,” It has however been suggested that “Fallmerayer’s thesis ..found adherents in the Third Reich.”
    In the 1830s, philehellenes who had recently supported the creation of the modern Greek kingdom suspected political motivations in Fallmerayer’s writings; …

    namely an Austrian desire for expansion southwards into the Balkans, and Austrian antagonism to Russian interests in the area reflected in his other writings.

    This Jerk Jacob Fallmerayer didnt examine my blood!
    Not a sinlge drop of Greek blood in my vains ? LOL
    He didnt examine any blood of any GREEK He was just doing his commanded duty & effort de-hellenizing the greeks in order 2 decrease any sympathy on Greeks,sympathy, that would’ve helped them in their struggle 4 independence, a struggle which opposed Austrias appetite 2 reach the Balkans Also Nazis used this theory 2 decrease any sympathy on Greeks NOW FYROMIAN FASCISTS use it 4 their propaganda

  37. The comments really are nasty.
    But I still dont see any direct reference by the welt towards the dna based eligibility. I assume it is somewhere on their site, if it is not I dont understand why KTG wouldve put it in the headline for this, especially since the raciscm in text and even more in the comments is obvious.

  38. Anybody got any links to actual genetic studies that examine the link between the ancient and modern Greek?
    Not that is matters to me. The link in attitudes and thinking is much more interesting because it says something about the state of affairs.

  39. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    Ancient like the slaves in the silver mines died of work after one year?

  40. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    So “Vice” too took it all wrong?

  41. The commentary leave nothing, absolutely nothing to the imagination. Nasty and sick is being very kind in describing them…

  42. http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/

    Everything you always wanted to know about where you come from….

  43. Nasty and sick yes, though I will say that there very much a difference between articles and the comments below( we wouldnt attack KTG for something Chris said either). The problem I have is that the headline suggest that the welt “favors a dna-based eu membership” and to this point not a single word of the article points says something like that. Now dont get me wrong its still racist, but that part isnt in it or at least noone has been able to give a link to it.

  44. That Greeks are NOT the descendants of Hellenes is an true fact.
    Only a blind nationalist that never opened a history book can believe the opposite. The Hellene “strain” has been so much diluted by all the more recent groups that inhabited Greece since the Romans, that it is indeed LUDICROUS to believe one is descending from the Hellenes, and worthy of the bullshit Golden Dawn members believe in.

    This said, what this journal published is a pure provocation and outrage. Not because of stating this simple truth, but by so shamelessly bring us back one century ago into pure Nazi ideology in the making! Genetic purity and the EU?
    We know that neoliberals are nothing but moderate, educated, rebranded Nazis, but you really surpassed yourselves now…

  45. I read the comments, too. I think you know that you always find a lot of different opinions in the comments, this is not a german phenomen. The third quoted comment was, for example, made by a Greek and if you would have read his other comments in the discussion you would have understood that this guy is NOT AT ALL (of course!) anti-greek. How somebody can not understand the irony in comment No. 4 where the commentor calls himself a Martian, is an enigma for me… You want me to go on? Obviously the author of THIS article does not understand German at all or… he is simply a racist.

  46. “That Greeks are NOT the descendants of Hellenes is an true fact.”
    Says who? you? Where all this hate comes from? admit it you would love to be a Greek but you are not, accept it and leave with this.

  47. It may not be said in as many words in the article, but it is a very valid interpretation of the tone of the article, and most definitely a very correct interpretation of those comments…

  48. Read my comment above again, and read the KTG article again. It is not said that the dna reference is in the article. KTG quite specifically says in the comments section on the online edition and offers a very accurate interpretation of what those comments mean to a Greek person. No matter who you twist it, they are vile, as is the article…

  49. From my point of view, yes. What doesn’t mean of course that I am right, who knows this? But maybe you try to think it this way (just to give you an idea): VICE’s argumentation is based on the last sentence (“The consequences can be admired every day”). All the rest of the article they find it okay: ” (…) So far, so informative. But at the very end of the text, the writer explains that the whole issue happened for the wrong reasons, because: (… see second grey quote above…). Berthold! What’s this? The interesting thing in this statement is that until the very end you can’t say nothing against it. The writer just describes the romantic ideas the Western Europeans had about “the Greek” and defines (? I hope this word is translated correct) it with reality. (…unimportant…) What makes this passage so strange is the last sentence: “The consequences can be admired every day.” What to conclude from this? Obviously, that the writer reduces the problems of Greece (and also EU) to the truth that Greeks have wrong genes.”
    But I think you can also see it this way: The writer is critizising the truth that the Western Europeans wanted the Greeks inside the EU due to their romantic ideas ignoring the actual state of the country that was maybe not ready for this (yet).
    And before you have any wrong ideas in mind about me: I do neither know if I am 100 % German, neither I mind or ever even thought about it. I don’t mind if I have German, Greek, Jewish, Arab, whatever-blood and the discussion about DNA is disgusting. My children are at least 50 % “not German”, and I am very happy for them to have the possibility to grow up with two cultures, two languages, two oppinions (sometimes), two WORLDS in one. It is a gift and I hope this will give them the possibility to be always able to see both sides of a story. Although this article gives ME the impression that I did a big crime and insult that I “thinned down” the Greek blood…. sad.

  50. For(most) of those comments yes, for the article not so much. Even within racists there are degrees, and from the racists overtone of this article to we proposed dna based eu membership it is still a long way. And the difference is very visible. Simply put no mainstream media outlet(and the welt has enough readers to qualify in that regard) and no politician could ever utter such a proposasl and have any thing left of his public life/career the day after publishing it.

  51. “In the context of the DNA-based eligibility for EU membership, the thesis of Conservative WELT and CDU clearly implies that apart from the fake Greeks, neither real Turks, Slavs and Albanians should be allowed in the European family of undiluted blood and pour races.”

    In the context of…. But nowhere near this article is said context, nowhere do they even get close to this. Now I would love to see a link to this, its that i wouldnt put it absolutly past the welt to write something like this but so far the only one bringing up said idea was KTG. Ill gladly let me convince you otherwise, just send me to such anarticle ill gladly read whatever material you send, but I have asked for any links since this morning and neither a quote nor a link to be found.
    I really like this site, there is debate and every once in a while KTG provides pure data nuggets, plus i very much respect that even though he oks every article different and even opposite opinions arent shut out. But the translation part Im starting to question. We had a similar thing with Schulz on june 5th where :
    “If youll allow it i want to say one sentence about the greek GOVERNMENT. Please dont be offended Mr Chondros when I say it like that. Sometimes they really get on my nerves, whether its Mr. Varoufakis or someone else.”
    is translated to Greeks get on my nerves. So he complains about the government not doing enough against taxfraud and yet its presented as if he insulted the every greek alive.
    Another small one from this article is the turkish-molded from the second translated paragraph, nowwhere to be found in the original. Now this does not in any way change the context of that article, so why add it at all?

  52. This is typical race based NONSENSE coming from Germany whose modern history reveals that they were once obsessed with “racial purity” theories. Theories, that unfortunately manifested themselves in extreme actions that brought us the horrors of Nazism.

    Traditional Greek culture emphasizes love for humanity and exercising “FEELOTEEMO” towards those they come in contact with – both Greek and non-Greek alike. Those are among the highlights of being Greek, not racial purity. But since, WELT wants to go there; let’s look at the facts and learn what others have said about the Greeks – both ancient and modern.

    And I quote:

    “The AMERICAN anthropologist Coon in [4] agrees when he asserts that the Greeks are an Alpine/Mediterranean mix, with a weak Nordic(d) component, being “remarkably similar” to their ancient ancestors.”

    Again I quote again:

    “The most complete study of Greek skeletal material from Neolithic to modern times was carried out by AMERICAN anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel [6] who found that in the early age racial variability in Greece was 7% above average, indicating that the Greeks had multiple origins within the Europid racial family. Angel noted that from the earliest times to the present “racial continuity in Greece is striking.” Buxton [30] who had earlier studied Greek skeletal material and measured modern Greeks, especially in Cyprus, finds that the modern Greeks “possess physical characteristics not differing essentially from those of the former [ancient Greeks].”

    http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/hellenes/

    And I quote a third time:

    “Modern studies have constructed Greek genetic trees revealing a strong degree of homogeneity between Greeks from different geographical locations. Median networks revealed that most of the Greek haplotypes are clustered to the five known haplogroups and that a number of haplotypes are shared among Greeks and other European and Near Eastern populations. Within the loci studied, the genetic composition of the Greeks indicates a significantly low level of heterogeneity compared with other European populations.[1][2] The levels of the R1a1 haplotype, associated by some with Slavic migrations, [3] have been found to be less than 12% (by way of comparison the relevant percentage for Syria is 10% and Poland 60%). [4]This confirms other studies that disprove the thesis that the Greeks have mingled substantially with Slavic people.[5][6] A 7%–22% contribution of Y chromosomes by Greeks to Southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis in the same study.[5] Yet other studies point out the significant frequency drop of the R1a marker over the short geographic distance between Greece and its Slavic northern neighbours.” [7]

    http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.ca/2008/08/fyrom-genetic-propaganda-against-greek.html

    The modern Greeks are ABSOLUTELY the true descendants of the Ancient Greeks and today’s Greeks should continue to remember and honor their ties with their illustrious ancient ancestors; particularly the humanity those ancients gave the world through their profound thought. God restore the Greek nation.

  53. Making these kind of allegations towards a country which is causing trouble to the EU is totally lack of argument for the mistake that they made to give a chance to Greece. What the article says its true about them not being decent Hellenic but what does that has to do with EU.Spanish people are mixed with Arabic. What, they do not deserve to be in the EU now? And if Germans went with this argument i don’t see the difference from 1939. Theyd have to take care of 16 milion emigrants which are turks,greeks,african,polish which are also slavic by the way.Germans say so long to your race purification, that is just history now. And stop blaming races for your mistakes. Albania is the only country that has its own kind and its own culture in the Ballkans, than there are Slavic everywhere that came from north and ofc the fake Greeks which are so proud of their poor land right now. What we have left is only the history but if we are trying to choose which part is better and which not we have failed to continue it.

  54. So, you’re obviously not reading… maybe we need a babel fish here because it would seem a lot is getting lost in translation.
    I’ll highlight the important word for you

    the thesis of Conservative WELT and CDU clearly implies that apart from the fake Greeks, neither real Turks, Slavs and Albanians should be allowed in the European family of undiluted blood and pour races

    To imply =

    indicate the truth or existence of (something) by suggestion rather than explicit reference.

    It is NOT a direct quote, it is an interpretation of what is written by an individual, in this case KTG. So you will indeed not find it verbatim in the article. However, that does not make the interpretation less valid, or accurate for that matter…

  55. I think you are totaly wrong thats just someones story .You can not tell me that The Greeks of today are all not disented from the Ancient Greeks plus if you know a real Turkeys person you can see the difference and characteristics in them wake up and stop bashing the Greek nation

  56. keeptalkinggreece

    amen

  57. Hmmm…, since we re at the point where its simply opinion vs opinion/ interpretation vs interpretation and there arent that much facts to be had from either one of us, maybe just agree to disagree on this one?

  58. keeptalkinggreece

    @che @Xenos @ephilant your comments of this morning have been deleted because “sensitive key words” attract no-no sicks I don’t want around

  59. keeptalkinggreece

    better stick to a “proper”and “behaved” argumentation, guys

  60. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    Do mean KTG or die Welt? Greek blood thang just because the typical German Anti-Greek racism of Springerpresse gets criticized? What? Just to get you smile even the X.A. fucks get “criticized” by north American Aryan Nation as not looking white enough.
    If you click a bit at the “history”-section of DieWelt you’ll find more nonsense “Greek history” there and you can also find it in FAZ(FAS) and Focus as this campaign started in the latter in 2010, when it invented the Milo Varoufakis’ finger, crowned by it’s boss Markwort saying that the virus shouldn’t been called Trojan as it were Greeks inside the horse. It’s also usually connected to that Greece was always stone broke and ignoring how and what was Greece alike after 400 years.
    The main reason to want Greece in the EU was the same reason for getting Portugal and Spain into it as all three just got rid of a dictatorship and needed to get stabilized

  61. You’re kidding, right? They speak Greek, jeez…

  62. Ah, the stupid analogy that @che used… Fair enough.

  63. keeptalkinggreece

    yes, this.

  64. The “Greek-blood-thing” was mostly adressed to the comments that want to present it like personal shortage to be not pure-blooded Greek and assume that Germans present themselves as pure-blooded and see a reason to be proud of this. For me, as I mentioned before, I can say that I never-ever wasted a thought about this theme. Also I do not remember if I ever met any German finding this a thing to dicuss about.
    Also we have no disagreement about the springer press. Of course it can be critizised for a lot of things, but I prefer it in a more neutrally way. Even if it was not the writer’s intention to display Germany as a country full of Nazis, you can see from the comments that readers obviously are willing to understand it like this. Additionally, just as example, the quoted comment No3 (“Strangely, the Mycenaeans were black-haired and black- or brown-eyed brown. They were probably not relatives to the Ionians, right? !”), to show “how many supposedly classically educated Germans in the comments section on the online edition express support of this racial theory” was made by a Greek. The quoted comment No 4 was made by a leftie, what you can easily find out if you read his other comments. It lowers the value of critcs if you do it on the same low level like your counterpart, don’t you think this, too?
    Also I do not see problems in Germany with classic pure racism but more with growing nationalism, what is very bad… but – without qualifying this – this seems to become a problem all over Europe, and in most countries even more than in Germany up to now.
    And thanks for the advice to read some more WELT-history, please don’t take it personally if I will not accept it ;P enough time wasted now, peace man!

  65. No problem, fully understand.

  66. Oh my God
    Look at the comments
    Wow !
    I read that Angela Merkel wants to step down as leader of her party before the 2017 elections.
    Q:
    Is she fed up
    OR
    Is she being pushed.
    Do her party see her as a liability & therefore they want her to step aside
    BUT FOR WHOM ?

  67. Giaourti Giaourtaki

    Thing is that it’s the same kind of press campaign that lead to Solingen, Mölln, Hoyerswerder and Rostock and this shit has to be stopped.
    This one (Volksverhetzung) is telling the German public that Greek students hail Hitler but it’s just moutza:
    http://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/wirtschaft/Steuerzahlerbund-warnt-Bundestag-article5560256.html

  68. np, dont think were going to agree here anyway

  69. Yes, I rarely agree with fools.

  70. The albatross around Merkel’s neck is strangely shaped like a wheelchair…

  71. Shouting “communist” to someone from a country that has 5% communists is stupid, but shouting “nazi” to a country that 80% of the people still reads “die welt and Bild, and believes in DNA purity, its more than truth! We could call them also greedy assholes, but it will be an insult to the assholes . By the way….last year we were polite and German turists were free to read those shits(Bild,Die Welt) without anyone bother them, but this year get ready, they will be surprised very negative of what will happen if they will dare to read those shitty newspapers in puplic in my Country