Democratic procedures in Europe? Well… Hardly… Most likely it is about a mechanism of Institutions that rule setting aside democratic elected governments and ministers. A very serious claim about the Eurogroup meeting of last Thursday is made by Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis.
In his article to the Irish Times, Varoufakis exposes that the eurozone finance ministers were not allowed to be informed in advance about the Greek and the creditors’ proposals conserning the deal-for-cash talks. He writes that the finance ministers were denied access both to the Institutions proposals made to the Greek government and the Greek proposals to the Institutions. Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan was the only one among the other 18 to protest this denial.
“Last Thursday’s eurogroup meeting went down in history as a lost opportunity to produce an already belated agreement between Greece and its creditors.
“Perhaps the most telling remark by any finance minister in that meeting came from Michael Noonan. He protested that ministers had not been made privy to the institutions’ proposal to my government before being asked to participate in the discussion.
To his protest, I wish to add my own: I was not allowed to share with Mr Noonan, or indeed with any other finance minister, our written proposals. In fact, as our German counterpart was later to confirm, any written submission to a finance minister by either Greece or the institutions was “unacceptable”, as he would then need to table it at the Bundestag, thus negating its utility as a negotiating bid.
The euro zone moves in a mysterious way. Momentous decisions are rubber- stamped by finance ministers who remain in the dark on the details, while unelected officials of mighty institutions are locked into one-sided negotiations with a solitary government-in-distress.
It is as if Europe has determined that elected finance ministers are not up to the task of mastering the technical details; a task best left to “experts” representing not voters but the institutions. One can only wonder to what extent such an arrangement is efficient, let alone remotely democratic.” (full article here).
Is that why the eurogroup finance ministers claim afterwards that the Greek proposals were “insufficient”? Because all they heard was Varoufakis’ speech but no details about the Greek Reform program or the Institutions proposals? And why didn’t the others complain? That’s probably the reason that why every time there is a Eurogroup meeting, they all chant “Greek proposals are insufficient”.
So why did the Eurogroup finance ministers meet? Apparently not in order to discuss ways for a solution to the Greek problem but to play modern inquisitors against the the Greek witch.
huh? the Instiquisition
Is the Eurogroup one of the groups of a kind of a 21st century Inquisition aiming to combat political heresy? A kind of tribunal determined to uproot any economic and reformatory sectarianism? A court of self-glorification against the Greek witch that has to go straight to the fire, so that her death scares the “faithful” in temptation of sinister thoughts – and revolts.
Was the Eurogroup meeting set up just to humiliate the Greek government? Will the next Eurogroup meeting scheduled for Monday before the Euro Leaders Summit keep the finance ministers again in the dark so that everybody chants for one more time “Greek proposals are insufficient”? Are all Eurogroup meetings just a theater stage?
And most important: Who has the upper hand in the eurogroup meeting and decides what information the ministers receive and what not?
What do you propose? No more meetings?
Yes. What’s the point?
I would also fall asleep after listening to Varoufakis for half year:)
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Nobody is humiliating Greece except for Greeks themself.
(wasting, cheating, borrowing like mad, not even accounting by standards, playing victims, accusing others, speaking about humanitarian crisis and opening loss making TV at the same time instead of using money to help those in troubles e.t.c.)
There is no inqusition in Europe in case of Greece (photo is from Monty Python), just realism and patience that makes many of us tired.
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May be it is really better to stop negotiations, if you do not appreciate, that top officials from EU and ECB must wait for you (1,8% of Eurozone GDP) like your puppets for half a year.
Very sadly, there is no agreement even on the process of getting to a compromise, let alone what the compromise should look like. The creditors expect the proposals to be processed bottom-up. To begin with, they need to be scored (e.g., how much euro could be saved from specific retirement age increase). Based on these numbers, one can project when and if the creditors will be paid back by calculating the primary surplus each year. The fin. ministers need then to review and approve these numbers.
Varoufakis, on the other hand, is an academic. He believed that he can explain to his colleagues how bad things are in Greece, and that would convince them to agree with his high-level ideas. Once that did not work, Tsipras insisted on a top-down “political decision” by the heads of state (regardless whether there were numbers that added up).
Despite this complete breakdown in communication I am growing a bit more optimistic that some compromise will be found soon — at least enough to avoid the Greek default now and kick the can down the road. In early May Varoufakis had stated in an interview for BBC: “We are prepared to go all the way down to the wire.” We are pretty close to that point.
Varoufakis is a bad boy. He tries to change rules of the game (rules that Greece agreed to) and then complains that other don’t follow rules (that they never agreed to). While he was on negotiating team, he was privy to all details immediately, but he isn’t on that team anymore. His beef should then be with Tsipras who removed him, for good reasons.
There is no rule that fin mins participate directly in negotiations between Greece and Troika, is there? IMF certainly doesn’t need to consult any fin mins in developing a proposal. IMF has their own, well known rules they need to follow. Varoufakis knows that.
Fin mins are covered because final proposal needs to be approved by all EZ governments, which means fin mins will have access to all details at that time, at the latest. This scheme is for a reason, to avoid “divide and conquer” type of strategy, where Varoufakis negotiates with individual fin mins, instead of the Troika, trying to change existing rules, again.
So, Varoufakis is a bad boy. He’s not trustworthy, his behavior doesn’t help negotiations and, I guess, that’s why he is no longer on the team.
Noonan has yet to confirm what he said to Varoufakis and what he meant.
This says it all and its a 288 stone pink elephant sitting in the corner of the room:
The euro zone moves in a mysterious way. Momentous decisions are rubber- stamped by finance ministers who remain in the dark on the details, while unelected officials of mighty institutions are locked into one-sided negotiations with a solitary government-in-distress.
These types of meetings are a charade, part of the fairy tale. The reason why finance ministers are kept in the dark is because this whole issue has nothing to do with finance. Economics is being used here instead of weapons of mass destruction to destroy nation-state sovereignty – its nothing more than an EU exercise in control and sanctions against those leaders who do not comply.
Unfortunately, this rule applies: “Beggars are not choosers”. A borrower always gives up some of her freedom.
what you seemed to have missed is that this “freedom” is being taken from all of us, not just greeks
Well, I think the results of the meeting are already known. Syriza guys are talking again about “the conspiracy theory” to justify a very likely failure of the negotiations. An Irish article (published today) predicts that Greece will become the Venezuela of Europe. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1028895.shtml. It is sad, but I think this scenario is also very likely with the radical left in power.
Zimbabwe would be a good model to follow as well. Still, prefer Iceland.
And who in Greece are the Indians the Europeans stole the land away and where comes all the oil from?
The Putinfish will keep away US-super-weapons, away from producing another huge earthquake on Santorini and it’s tsunamis that would otherwise roll over Crete to destroy all oil-sources at 4000 miles deep mud-vulcanos in the Libyan Sea.
Not to mention that giant octopussies hate it when their babies’ cradles get disturbed down there and will revolt
http://www.protagon.gr/?i=protagon.el.moyfanet&id=12122
Sorry, I forgot: Not in your article mentioned High Drama Drachma instead of Euro in-midst of tourist season but rather US-Dollar as there are so many Americans this year thanks to the low Euro.
But what will the anarchists say?
Actually Venezuela is still one of the most developed countries in South America, and one with some of the best indexes on social indicators. Being the “Venezuela” of Europe means being like Denmark or Iceland…
But hey, its well established that you are a eu troll so anything goes for you if the goal is to bash the Greek people and Syriza
Iceland, maybe but not Denmark, closer to Zimbabwe. You do not want to be like Venezuela. Maduro’s dictatorship and no toilet paper.
“Venezuela’s inflation rate hit 69% in December, according to Bloomberg. The black-market-bolivar-to-dollar exchange rate surged from 279 bolivars to the dollar at the beginning of this month to as much as 423 bolivars to the dollar recently.” – businessinsider.com
around the globe in 1825 Greek MoU days
You are just jealous of beautifuI Greece. Tourists Iike you have to save up & pay whereas we get it a free, every day. And we have dignity, courage & intelligence. No sick need to sit aII day cutting down other countries with spite & Iies.
Shell-gamer Dieselblüm will have something under his shells?
European politics has been transformed into meaningless theatre — with politicians playing the roles of actors, whose lines have been written and pre-authorised by bureaucrats and unknown, unelected others. The Greek government represents a significantly different form of government — one with actual expertise and accepts accountability for its actions.
This horror of anti-democratic theatre can be seen across the world, but is more obvious (owing to the rapid decline of accountability to the people) in the EU, after 2009. What would be astonishing, if we did not already know the reasons, is how the mass media have almost nothing to say on the biggest and most important issue of our time. Instead, they prefer to engage in frivolous discussion about politicians’ dress sense, or the fictional numbers about Greek debt (which even top economists have problems with interpreting), or random incidents of violence (usually caused by mentally deranged people, given access to guns or whatever).
But yes, it bears analogy with the Spanish Insquisition. It is about how the holders of power assert and maintain their power, in the context of increasing popular disquiet. They will be ruthless, and show no limits in their determination to rule. We are entering the new medieval world (with some elements of the 20th century fascist world), and some new elements. It is going to be a miserable time for 99% of the population.
Yes, all bad politicians are in Europe (without Greece) and US, and the best ones in Greece and Russia. 🙂 In addition, as I understand from Greek parliament’s documents, the Greek debt is fictional, so EZ should delete it and start pumping more euro for the great Greek people. Nice dream….Is this the “European dream” Greek gov. is waiting from EZ?
“The Greek government represents a significantly different form of government — one with actual expertise and accepts accountability for its actions”
Expertise is questionable, unless annoying your creditors is counted as a good skill to employ in negotiations.
Tsipras government is not any different from other socialists, nothing to be excited about.
Accountability for this government’s actions – that’s an unknown (government has not been around long enough to judge), except for sticking to suicidal red lines. Certainly, don’t see accountability for Greece’s prior obligations.
I meant expertise in economic issues — which is seriously deficient within the Eurogroup. Even one of the senior German economic advisors is an asshole, whose grasp of banking issues has been shown to be roughly zero, yet the Germans think he is an expert.
However, if you are talking about negotiating style, and the drama that has been played out over the last 5 months, I suggest you look to history. You will find that the most dramatic negotiations, with bizarre twists and turns, organised propaganda and disinformation, are the most important and the ones where weaker countries usually come out better. The last one where Greece behaved like this was in 1923, with the negotiations at Lausanne (now the Treaty of Lausanne). The chief Greek negotiator was Eleftherios Venizelos, who was alternately feared, despised and respected by the Great Powers. He is now considered to be one of the most effective politicians in modern Greek history. At the time, the British engaged in mocking him, attempting to wear him down with the demands made — in order to impose their ideas on Greece. They also predicted a very negative outcome from the negotiations, which did not happen. Considering the disastrous situation of Greece after the Asia Minor Catastrophe, the outcome was very positive indeed.
So, pay a little more attention to reality– rather than recycling the garbage that you have been fed by the Troika and mass media.
I guess you are referring to Mr (Un)sinn… There are many more German economists advising the government like Bofinger and Fratzscher. Still, you become an expert by getting most invitations to talkshows and interviews…
I had litle doubts that the “Eurogrup” and institutions are, as you very rightly say, a new inquisition.
But the details of how this is actually achieved I was not aware… unbelievable…
“He protested that ministers had not been made privy to the institutions’ proposal to my government before being asked to participate in the discussion.”
Amazing… so now we know how much the “institutions” value the inputs and feedback of officials elected by the people…
On the front and in the sporlight the US promoting/acting (Hollywood style) the EU and are very pro EU.
On the background the US want again destroy Europe and create chaos/war for long long time.
My personal view is, that Tsipras, as the first pm for long, is trying to do what is best for greece. Unfortunatly for the rest that id that he is trying to rip the eu off 100 billion euros – or whatever the debt cut will bring. He had to promote the concept ofthe “humanitarian crisis” to overrule any sensible and fact based decision by emotionap or “political” decision. Therefore his government did everything to destroy any progress.
This would also explain, why we did only see unimportant reforms like hoody law and prison reform, but no teforms on taxes ans bureaucracy.
The small growth of GDP of the last goverment was wrecked by uncertainty. The sell of of public belongings had to be stopped until after the debt write off.
he cannot do tax and othe rimportant reforms before agreement as they will be considered ‘unilateral actions’ by the creditors.
Where did you get that from? Can you please show me? As far as I remember, only actions that will burden the balances of the greek state must be approved by the institutions.
google it.
If I google I get : The Greek authorities have committed to “refrain from any roll back of measures and unilateral actions that would negatively impact fiscal targets, economic recovery or financial stability”, Dijsselbloem said.
But there is nothing hindering any “good” reforms, trying to improve the situation.
But I also might have missed something.
If not, it might be your gouvernment obfuscating, trying to uphold the narrative of the “humanitqrian crisis”.
The Greek government or SYRIZA don’t have any resources to obscure anything, if it would it wouldn’t take 5 months to confront so many myths and all these lies about Greece created by German Goebbels-media.
Guess Junker with his “2 billion against humanitarian crisis” is also in the Greek government now; where is the money, btw?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31992175
But here is Mr Varoufakis in an interview just 2 weeks ago and as the German political class reads this newspaper there was enough time for dementi or shout out loud “he lies!”
“…And moreover: the institutions are telling us, if we legislate before we reached a comprehensive agreement this will be seen as a unilateral action and it will blow up the negotiations. One of the very first things I said to my Eurogroup colleagues was, why don’t we push some of the legislation we agree on – the taxation system, the anti-corruption rules – through parliament and meanwhile continue the negotiations? And I was actually told a number of times if I dare to suggest this again this would constitute reason to settle the negotiations.”
16th Question:
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/euro-finance/varoufakis-greeces-creditors-have-turned-negotiations-war-315247
Well , what I was trying to tell is, that he and Tsipras are not telling the truth.
They say so but their actions or the lack of them tells otherwise.
So please be so kind and show me an other source proofing that statement about unilateral actions. Something not from Syriza.
Thank you in advance.
If you take Merkel’s – taught by Stalinists when she was young – definition of “reform”, so to eat goats raisins
Unilateral Actions
One blackmail by EU:
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_17/03/2015_548321
One blackmail by their allies:
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/04/03/turkey-warns-greece-to-avoid-unilateral-actions-and-not-to-spoil-positive-atmosphere-in-aegean/
Go Indymedia and write an article about the “Greek lies” and hundreds of sources will open up for you
“. The Greek authorities commit to refrain from any rollback of measures and unilateral changes to the policies and structural reforms that would negatively impact fiscal targets, economic recovery or financial stability, as assessed by the institutions. ”
This is the relevant part, and this is the whole statement:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/02/150220-eurogroup-statement-greece/
Of course non budgetary issues arent a part of this, and yes anything that would actually bring money would be accepted(in fact highly welcome).
Also in the end the greek parliament is the only institution with the power to make and abolish laws.
gov’t cannot change the income taxation system (revenue increases)in the middle of the year, for example, it can but change are been impplement next year.
I am astonished by questions posed by people who have no idea how things work.
That income taxatiopn is bound to january 1st got nothing to with the agreement though.
I asked a couple of days ago and if I remember correctly several people told me ALL initatives had to be suspended. This is clearly not the case.
the ALL what?
All legislative action. After all there are alot of issue that have nothing to do with money, just out of my hand legalization of weed, same sex marriages, some CO2 decreasing measure are revenue neutral plus theres a whole justice system/criminal code, loads of other issues that might be interesting for a nev government plus ofc any revenue increasing measure would be ok too.
(cant reply directly anymore)
@Che
The last Greek governments made the most crazy laws often more or less “hidden” in the summer break …
Legalization of Kalamata-Grass would boost agriculture, water-industry, medicine-sector and tourism (also for patients) and as it’s possible that it will get legal in Central Europe it would make much more sense in Greek sun than genetic engineered paranoia-stuff from Hollandaise green house; guess Dieselblüm will hate this.
Anyway I don’t see a point if high position members of SYRIZA and top members of the Greek government tell in European public and in different languages, translated that they’re not allowed to do their job and not any Troika-institutions member replies that this is wrong. If SYRIZA would be lying here this would mean that the Europeans don’t care at all, as this would show that they don’t listen and don’t read.
I read your link up top to V. statemetn, problem is i can remember multiple times where i heard german politician say that they would want just one reform enacted as sign of cooperation.
I just searched for a bit and should have remembered that its always best to go directly to the source.
http://www.hellenicparliament.gr/en/Nomothetiko-Ergo/Psifisthenta-Nomoschedia
This is a list of all enacted laws and measures.
And this hould be a list of those proposed but not (yet) enacted, I cant read it cause that ones in greek, maybe if theres something interesting in it youll translate:
http://www.hellenicparliament.gr/Nomothetiko-Ergo/Katatethenta-Nomosxedia
In the end it comes down for me to this. THers is written agreement everyone can cite and that clearly says “..negatively impact fiscal targets…” also I really cannot imagine anyone walking out on the negotiations because something they either wanted to happen or didnt care about was enacted, that just doesnt make any sense.